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Cruizin

Tenere 700 vs KTM 790 Adventure

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Cruizin

This topic is already being discussed, and it will only heat up more as the T-7's start being delivered in July.  This is like an old "Chevy vs Ford" debate from the 80's in the USA. Both sides will be fiercely loyal to their brand. 

 

But the Yamaha certainly has two serious advantages that sticks out.  Price and history of longevity. I love my 2 stroke KTM, and I know people who love their four stroke KTM dirt bikes. But also know a ton of people who have had problems with their KTM Street bikes. I won't go into the list here, I'll leave that up to you guys in your replies below. KTM has gotten much better over the years, but Yamaha has been doing this for a long time and with very good results in the quality dept. 

 

And then there is the subject of Price.  

 

In the UK, The KTM 790 Adventure will cost our friends  £11,099  and £11,999 for the Adventure R model. In the USA, the price for the KTM 790 Adventure is $12,499 and $13,499 for the Adventure R.  OUCH. 

 

The Tenere 700 hits the UK after the presale priced at £8,699 .  I expect the USA version to cost around $9999.00 

 

For us Yanks, that's $12,499 for the base KTM or $9,999 for the Tenere 700.  in 2020, I can buy a Tenere 700, upgrade the exhaust, flash the ECU, slap on some dirt worthy tires and still come in well under the price of the stock/base KTM 790 Adventure.  

 

My Dual Sport money is going with Team Yamaha.  

 

 

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SwedePete
Posted (edited)

I would urge anyone who engage in this discussion to ride the KTM 790 adventure before commenting.

I tried it yesterday (Adventure S), when you engage the throttle there is a delay (like an old turbo engine), regardless of revs or gear, slightly better in offroad mode but very annoying, it's like the computer thinks about "did he really twist the throttle ? Oh, let's give it a go"

When I sat down on it I put my foot on the gear shift (I want it on the peg) and my knees very high up, it felt like it was made for very short people (I'm 173cm/5'8). Slightly better with the seat in high position. The handlebars is low and almost in my lap. Handlebar to handlebar, my F800GS (with raisers though) is 10cm higher. The 1290R has the same weird position with the knees very high up even if the whole bike is larger/higher. My 186cm friend wanted to raise the seat because he was so cramped (me too, but then I wouldn't reached the ground), apparently that option went away with the 1190.

 

What I remember from the exhibition in January is that both me and my friend loved the T700, both standing and sitting down. 

We went from the KTM dealer to a Yamaha dealer but there were no T700's to see (or try), I did take the MT-07 for a ride to check out the engine (don't try the MT-07 with adventure boots or if you are above 150 cm tall), the engine is absolutely gorgeous, even though the KTM (on paper) has +20hp/Nm you would think it was the other way around with the MT-07 engine answering immediately on throttle on almost any gear.

 

Enough gripe ... I was in for buying a KTM but now looking at the T700,  it is the wonderful engine that made the decision .

Edited by SwedePete
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Cruizin
2 hours ago, SwedePete said:

I would urge anyone who engage in this diskussion to ride the KTM 790 adventure before commenting.

I tried it yesterday (Adventure S), when you engage the throttle there is a delay (like an old turbo engine), regardless of revs or gear, slightly better in offroad mode but very annoying, it's like the computer thinks about "did he really twist the throttle ? Oh, let's give it a go"

When I sat down on it I put my foot on the gear shift (I want it on the peg) and my knees very high up, it felt like it was made for very short people (I'm 173cm/5'8). Slightly better with the seat in high position. The handlebars is low and almost in my lap. Handlebar to handlebar my F800GS (with raisers though) is 10cm higher. The 1290R hast the same weird position with the knees very high up even if the whole bike is larger/higher. My 186cm friend wanted raise the seat because he was so cramped (me too, but then I wouldn't reached the ground), apparently that option went away with the 1190.

 

What I remember from the exhibition in January is that both me and my friend loved the T700, both standing and sitting down. 

We went from the KTM dealer to a Yamaha dealer but there were no T700's to see (or try), I did take the MT-07 for a ride to check out the engine (don't try the MT-07 with adventure boots or if you are above 150 cm tall), the engine is absolutely gorgeous, even though the KTM (on paper) has +20hp/Nm you would think it was the other way around with the MT-07 engine answering immediately on throttle on almost any gear.

 

Enough gripe ... I was in for buying a KTM but now looking at the T700,  it is the wonderful engine that made the decision .

The MT-07 CP2 engine is bulletproof, long lasting and the fueling is divine. This is gonna be one hell of a bike!

 

Thanks for sharing with us! 

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denis700

Bikes not directly comparable. Different cc, power, buyer target group.

 

I see it as a mix of bmw f700gs (not 750) and actually nothing else, as there is not a bike on the market, to compare it to the ruggedness of the T7.

 

I rode the 790R on the gravel. This bike is a computer on two wheels, but lacks windshield (can fit one from S model) and cruise control. Brakes nice, feel quite nimble, firm suspension, pulls too much for the local gravel roads, with a power hole down low. Throttle by wire not to my liking.

It does however have 14 power modes...but i think neither will pull off idle.

The only thing I like about TFT screen is phone connectivity, music, calls, navigation (arrows only).

 

I dislike the looks of the fuel tank, even though it lowers center of gravity, very prone to hitting and breaking. Imagine the size of crash bars over the fuel tank.

I dislike the amount of curves and plastics, that are stylishly curved, making it hard to properly clean insides.

I dislike the overall looks, as it actually looks very heavy.

 

I do like, when comparing to my old XT 600...I was dirty as hell, riding on wet muddy gravel roads, the ktm was very good in protecting the driver head to toe, from debris and bike was dirty only up front.

Also like the cable clutch.

 

Bike was new..so warning would light up, if you went over 6.000rpm, but 3-6.000, it just destroyed the gravel. Didn't try going over 6000.

It is fuel efficient, doing 67 mpg in slowish trails and 52 road cruising up to 75mph.

IMG_20190511_140831.jpg

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Cruizin
1 hour ago, denis700 said:

Bikes not directly comparable. Different cc, power, buyer target group.

 

I see it as a mix of bmw f700gs (not 750) and actually nothing else, as there is not a bike on the market, to compare it to the ruggedness of the T7.

 

I rode the 790R on the gravel. This bike is a computer on two wheels, but lacks windshield (can fit one from S model) and cruise control. Brakes nice, feel quite nimble, firm suspension, pulls too much for the local gravel roads, with a power hole down low. Throttle by wire not to my liking.

It does however have 14 power modes...but i think neither will pull off idle.

The only thing I like about TFT screen is phone connectivity, music, calls, navigation (arrows only).

 

I dislike the looks of the fuel tank, even though it lowers center of gravity, very prone to hitting and breaking. Imagine the size of crash bars over the fuel tank.

I dislike the amount of curves and plastics, that are stylishly curved, making it hard to properly clean insides.

I dislike the overall looks, as it actually looks very heavy.

 

I do like, when comparing to my old XT 600...I was dirty as hell, riding on wet muddy gravel roads, the ktm was very good in protecting the driver head to toe, from debris and bike was dirty only up front.

Also like the cable clutch.

 

Bike was new..so warning would light up, if you went over 6.000rpm, but 3-6.000, it just destroyed the gravel. Didn't try going over 6000.

It is fuel efficient, doing 67 mpg in slowish trails and 52 road cruising up to 75mph.

IMG_20190511_140831.jpg

Thanks for sharing that info! 

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TimeMachine

Ok Mr Cruizin, now you are just stirring up trouble. So I am going to oblige just a little with a few separate posts to discuss my favourite topics. Firstly...

 

I have not ridden the 790 adventure or the 790 Duke. I have ridden the 690 Duke and 701 SM both with the latest engine, and the 1090 Adventure R. What is common with these bikes is the tendency for the engines to have low inertia, or flywheel effect. This makes the engine quick to accelerate (ready to race anyone), but also quick to lose traction and snatchy on the driveline when powering at lower revs (690 Duke especially, 1090 not so much). Videos I have seen also mention this same snatchiness at low revs on the 790 Duke, so I'll assume it is no better. This makes the bike more inclined to lose grip, and likely why the KTMs suffer from lack of grip until they turn on traction control to manage it.  

The problem with using traction control is that it is a poor substitute for real mechanical grip. Whenever the traction control kicks in, it is obvious that the amount of drive has been reduced from the already low tractive effort that the bike can achieve before it breaks traction.

A better solution is to use a higher inertia in the engine using a heavier crank or flywheel. This smooths out the power pulses helping to achieve traction under higher loads, but also smooths out the drive at low revs so the engine can achieve more power to the ground at low revs and also makes the engine harder to stall, a useful feature when on rough tracks and steep inclines. 

By all accounts, the CP2 has more inertia than many engines, specifically because it is renowned for being able to produce smooth power at low revs, but also anecdotally from the reviews where it was noted as having a lot of mechanical grip, with many reviewers commenting it didn't miss the traction control. It is interesting that one of the bikes that had very high inertia was the original XT500, which also made it great for pulling wheelies.

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TimeMachine

Based on some comments and images online, my concern is that the 790 Adventure is too small for me. I have seen the pictures of the 790 and T700 lined up but they do not look accurate. Not having sat on either bike I am not going to make a final judgement on this, but looking at the bikes in detail it appears to me that the Tenere 700 will accomodate my larger size better. On either bike I would have to raise the seat, lower the pegs and raise the bars. I have a 37" inseam and sitting on the 690 and 701 my knees are up to my elbows, and even worse when I sat on the 790 Duke at the dealer, if I turned the wheel fully to one side the bar would hit my knee. Looking at the riders on the KTM 790, they look to high, too close to the bars and don't look comfortable. And these aren't big guys. 

Perhaps someone that has sat on one can comment.

 

2019-KTM-790-Adventure-R-Review.thumb.jpg.a4cc16268be3d2a3d6d2825f07fbe1ed.jpg1549893893_790small2.thumb.jpg.c5e4c45ae0e85b6b13ee6d1af5459b2d.jpg1124232918_790small1.thumb.jpg.366a63c304eede475d3d1fb596542f2f.jpg

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TimeMachine
Posted (edited)

Which one looks best (I might be cheating a bit with picture selection)? But also the difference in price is huge and that would pay for a lot of weight saving and upgrades.

 

790 Adventure standard ($21,200 AUD ride away)

2000000001.jpg.0c4596ea96d7b83cca7eb4ee37d6cdc2.jpg

 

KTM 790 Adventure R ($22,695 AUD ride away)

1068684073_2000000001(1).jpg.670f19e4f16e8eeff9c4494631bad6f8.jpg

256843_PVW_0102_miwi_B_flat790_Adventure_R_2019__1_.thumb.jpg.0aad66ae0552b9300e89928b9ca76a5a.jpg

 

Yamaha Tenere 700 ($17,000 AUD ride away)Yamaha-Tenere-700-MBL2_STA_007.thumb.jpg.13bc2b988f36c1a1ede1436b20aa04f9.jpg

 

61357429_10157485984086694_4375996986524958720_o.thumb.jpg.c4f4d1d4fafafd486338e6e1743b8468.jpg

Edited by TimeMachine

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TimeMachine

OK, a bit more contentious, is it just perception that the KTM's have a reliability problem? Plenty of KTM's don't have major issues. My brother has the 1090 Adventure R and has had no issues, with 45000 klms on the clock so far. My son's 701 has false neutral problems and a few minor oil leaks on oil filter cover and dip stick cap. It also had trouble recently not starting which we suspect relates to the battery. The bike is 20 months old.

There are plenty of examples online of riders with problems on the 690 through to 1290, and now also the 790, but is it enough to say it's a real reliability issue? Personally I think it's the nature of the internet to focus attention to problems so it is unlikely to be as bad as it seems. That still doesn't give me comfort though, especially for an adventure bike that I really need to rely on. If it comes down to a choice, I would take Yamaha first over any other brand, especially in this category where the CP2 is a stand-out solid reliable lump.

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SwedePete
Posted (edited)
On 6/2/2019 at 11:35 AM, TimeMachine said:

Based on some comments and images online, my concern is that the 790 Adventure is too small for me. I have seen the pictures of the 790 and T700 lined up but they do not look accurate. Not having sat on either bike I am not going to make a final judgement on this, but looking at the bikes in detail it appears to me that the Tenere 700 will accomodate my larger size better. On either bike I would have to raise the seat, lower the pegs and raise the bars. I have a 37" inseam and sitting on the 690 and 701 my knees are up to my elbows, and even worse when I sat on the 790 Duke at the dealer, if I turned the wheel fully to one side the bar would hit my knee. Looking at the riders on the KTM 790, they look to high, too close to the bars and don't look comfortable. And these aren't big guys. 

Perhaps someone that has sat on one can comment.
 

 

 

It was way too small for me 173 cm/32" inseam, I could put my foot flat on the ground on the lowest setting of the seat (Adventure S).
My friend look like he sat on a mini moto, he's 186 cm.

Edited by SwedePete
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TimeMachine

So does the KTM 790 have a big advantage with cornering ABS? Here are my thoughts on it. If you don't agree then feel free to provide information to the contrary, preferably from Bosch and not from KTM/BMW/etc sales bullshit, and we can all learn from it.

 

Standard ABS is a reactive system that reacts to slight loss of traction and reduces the braking force as a response. This happens in microseconds on modern ABS systems and works mid-corner as well as in a straight line. The limitation here is at full tilt the micro-loss of traction might trigger unrecoverable loss of traction due to very high lateral forces on the tire and the sideways motion of the bike might making it impossible to recover, or affect the handling of the bike.

 

Cornering ABS is a predictive system that uses an IMU (multi-axis accelerometer) to predict and restrict how much brake force can be applied. But it must also rely on regular reactive ABS because the predictive algorithm will have limitations. The system will not know for example if there is water, oil or gravel on the road, so thinking it has full traction will incorrectly diagnose the brake force limit, overcook it and the normal reactive ABS will kick in. 

 

Another benefit of having an IMU is the ability to manage braking between front and back, and also feed predictive information to the traction control system.

 

Now it would also be fair to say that not all ABS systems are the same, even when comparing standard reactive ABS systems. One could argue that the generation 9 of the Bosch ABS system that is the latest gen with cornering ABS would have the latest tech in this regard, and that may be true. But don’t underestimate what Yamaha have fitted to their bikes. A good example of this is a comparison between the MT10 and other naked bikes done by bike world in the UK a few years ago. They found the MT10 performed the best even though their seat of the pants expectation was that other bikes were better.

 

 

The following video shows some of bullshit we get from marketing types about cornering ABS. Firsly they should have left the demonstration of no ABS at the door because we all know that sucks. The very little content in this video showing standard ABS and cornering ABS is absolute nonsense. The standard ABS rider did not need to stand the bike up and overreact. The tests also dont show the cornering ABS performing in mixed surface conditions.

 

 

In my view the cornering ABS system has benefit, but only in extreme situations when cornering at full tilt and only in more perfect road conditions such as on a race track. For regular street riders it will help you get closer to the limits of the bike safely on a perfect road, so could be considered a learning aid, but you would have to be pushing very hard on the street to be finding those limits. I don’t believe it will assist in the vast majority of emergency braking situations, even those that we might consider extreme because the standard ABS does an excellent job already and the predictive algorithm cannot anticipate varying road conditions.

 

 

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Cruizin

Man, I have ridden bikes without ABS since the 70's.  I have never felt that I needed ABS or stability control on a motorcycle. I want my bikes to have the least amount of electronic bullshet and if it has ABS, I want to be able to simply shut it off. 

 

I like to trail brake on the road.  Off road, I often steer with my rear brake, sliding that real wheel into corners and then slamming the throttle on. 

 

Sometimes, I think a bunch of these electronic controls are for dudes that perhaps shouldn't be on motorcycles in the first place. 

 

Ok, old guy rant is over.. 

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TimeMachine
28 minutes ago, Cruizin said:

Man, I have ridden bikes without ABS since the 70's.  I have never felt that I needed ABS or stability control on a motorcycle. I want my bikes to have the least amount of electronic bullshet and if it has ABS, I want to be able to simply shut it off. 

 

I like to trail brake on the road.  Off road, I often steer with my rear brake, sliding that real wheel into corners and then slamming the throttle on. 

 

Sometimes, I think a bunch of these electronic controls are for dudes that perhaps shouldn't be on motorcycles in the first place. 

 

Ok, old guy rant is over.. 

From one old guy to another...

There was a time I would have agreed. When riding on the dirt on my Husky 650, the ABS can at times limit the braking to basically nothing. And the faster I ride the worse this gets. I have to turn off the ABS.

But modern ABS systems have come a long way. My MT09 has really good ABS and it's comforting to know its there for my street riding. And one of the Tenere 700 reviewers commented how good the ABS worked on the dirt so I am looking forward to checking it out to see how good it is.

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Cruizin
On 6/2/2019 at 3:57 AM, TimeMachine said:

Which one looks best (I might be cheating a bit with picture selection)? But also the difference in price is huge and that would pay for a lot of weight saving and upgrades.

 

790 Adventure standard ($21,200 AUD ride away)

2000000001.jpg.0c4596ea96d7b83cca7eb4ee37d6cdc2.jpg

 

KTM 790 Adventure R ($22,695 AUD ride away)

1068684073_2000000001(1).jpg.670f19e4f16e8eeff9c4494631bad6f8.jpg

256843_PVW_0102_miwi_B_flat790_Adventure_R_2019__1_.thumb.jpg.0aad66ae0552b9300e89928b9ca76a5a.jpg

 

Yamaha Tenere 700 ($17,000 AUD ride away)Yamaha-Tenere-700-MBL2_STA_007.thumb.jpg.13bc2b988f36c1a1ede1436b20aa04f9.jpg

 

61357429_10157485984086694_4375996986524958720_o.thumb.jpg.c4f4d1d4fafafd486338e6e1743b8468.jpg

I love the look of the Red and White T-7 best so far. I wonder if someone will make a Safari tank for it? 

 

Maybe if we can put together a group buy IMS or Clark might make one for us? 

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Cruizin
6 hours ago, TimeMachine said:

From one old guy to another...

There was a time I would have agreed. When riding on the dirt on my Husky 650, the ABS can at times limit the braking to basically nothing. And the faster I ride the worse this gets. I have to turn off the ABS.

But modern ABS systems have come a long way. My MT09 has really good ABS and it's comforting to know its there for my street riding. And one of the Tenere 700 reviewers commented how good the ABS worked on the dirt so I am looking forward to checking it out to see how good it is.

I had a 2014 FZ-09 in Orange. It didn't have ABS and I never locked the wheels up.  I guess maybe I need to ride a bike with ABS to see, but I certainly am happy the T7 can shut ABS off for the dirt.   There is a reason why Motocross and Enduro bikes don't have ABS. 

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Ten7

16.500 AUD ride away price here 👍

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Wildduck

Cornering ABS can be essential ... when you really need it.

 

I think I‘m an experienced rider and can handle a lot of situations without rider aids. But I had one situation where the cornering ABS saved my ass. 

 

A very sporty driven Porsche in front of me, at the apex of a tight 180 degree corner in the middle of a forest. The car accelerated. I had a good lean angle with mike 690 Duke R and also pulled the throttle. No traffic, perfect street, perfect view. In the next millisecond the car fully stands on the break (a Porsche!!!). A Mountainbiker has been jumped out of the wood, 10 meters in front of the Porsche. I had no time to even think, I just reacted. Luckily I always have 1 or 2 fingers at the break lever. 5 centimeters to the Porsche I stopped.

 

The Porsche slightly hit the biker. But the biker did was not heavily injured. Just some scratches.

 

With a normal ABS the bike would have gone upright and I would have crashed into a stone wall or I would have lost the front tire. With no ABS I would have fallen down instantly and slided even faster into the wall.

 

More defensive drivers can for sure claim that they never would come into such a situation, but for me cornering makes perfect sense and is more the a nice too have.

 

I miss cornering ABS on my current bike (Street Triple R.S.) and will miss it on the 700 Ténéré too.

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TimeMachine
2 hours ago, Wildduck said:

With a normal ABS the bike would have gone upright and I would have crashed into a stone wall or I would have lost the front tire. With no ABS I would have fallen down instantly and slided even faster into the wall.

That is not my experience. If I hit the brakes mid-corner the bike stays down if I want it to. The only thing standing the bike up is the rider. Cornering ABS is just another way to restrict the braking power, and we know what that feels like on the dirt.

This video shows plenty of corners where I am braking deep into the corner. Not overly fast or dangerous, but enough to show that the braking is not making the bike stand up.

 

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Wildduck

Cornering ABS breaks also at the rear, that keeps you (more or less) stay in the line around the corner. Normal ABS does not break at the rear and pushes you much more upright  >>> at least my experience, on same bike (full ABS vs SuperMoto ABS).

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Wildduck

And  another potential contender...

 

Honda-CRF850L-Africa-Twin-Rumored.jpg

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lhedrick
On 6/5/2019 at 3:17 PM, Cruizin said:

Man, I have ridden bikes without ABS since the 70's.  I have never felt that I needed ABS or stability control on a motorcycle. I want my bikes to have the least amount of electronic bullshet and if it has ABS, I want to be able to simply shut it off. 

 

I like to trail brake on the road.  Off road, I often steer with my rear brake, sliding that real wheel into corners and then slamming the throttle on. 

 

Sometimes, I think a bunch of these electronic controls are for dudes that perhaps shouldn't be on motorcycles in the first place. 

 

Ok, old guy rant is over.. 

I wouldn't call that a rant.   Sounds like the truth to me.   I'm with you I want 10000 dollars worth of engine trans and suspension, not 6000 and 4000 thousand more in added junk I'm going to turn off or have to pay to fix it.  You can't even buy a full sized pickup truck with anything but an automatic transmission today and now the automatic trans is finding its way into motorcycles.  No thanks to any DCT auto trans for me on anything with 2 wheels.

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TimeMachine
On 6/11/2019 at 4:31 AM, Wildduck said:

Cornering ABS breaks also at the rear, that keeps you (more or less) stay in the line around the corner. Normal ABS does not break at the rear and pushes you much more upright  >>> at least my experience, on same bike (full ABS vs SuperMoto ABS).

Bennets actually tested braking mid-corner to the limit to see what would happen. They switched off the ABS so they could force the tires to let go. It's a helpful video on good rider technique. There is another video from these guys related to the Niken and it's comparitive performance doing the same tests on the same day.

 

 

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