WARNING: Oil plug & torque specifications 16 ft lbs max

[Yasenia]

On 3/24/2022 at 1:29 PM, SpencerChedid said:

Just got my brand new 2022 T7 delivered today and the first thing I did was check the drain oil plug recommended torque on the user manual to ensure they corrected it, but they did not.
It still listed as 32 lb/ft.

Wow, congrats! Enjoy your new baby!

[duibhceK]

2 hours ago, Ray Ride4life said:

The cap is just a dirt cover, the sealing part is springloaded.

Indeed, the cap is just there to keep everything clean. The drain hose has a bayonet fitting that opens the spring loaded valve.

I've used this for many years on my 660 Tenere and 650 Versys. No issues at all. And it's really nice to do clean oil changes.

[Tenerider]

@Yasenia, I think nobody will argue about applying only the specified torque with a calibrated tool on ANY part of an airplane (really any).

 

BUT I agree with @Alter Ego: This specific problem is not rocket science, because in rocket science, engineers would have triple-checked (at least) every single digit and letter in the manual.

It seems that the torque spec on the T7 oil drench plug is way above (this means by factor 2) comparable torque specs for similarly sized oil drench plugs (across all manufacturers).

This is not a part of the bike which is directly related to riding safety (like wheels, chassis, brakes, ...). So, it is not impossible that Yamaha have made a mistake there (for example, doing the Nm-ft*lb-calculation twice, or whatever).

 

Apart from that: Aviation is the safest mean of transportation by fatal accidents per travelled distance - not by fatal accidents per journey, as far as I know. Anyway, I estimate that the vast majority of fatal accidents on the road (!) do not originate from mechanical issues (like, an undertightened oil drench plug ;-)), but from poorly skilled drivers/riders.

Definitely this is true in Germany (but on the other hand, we even use torque wrenches when setting the temperature on our shower every morning).

[Yasenia]

I hope you were joking when you said that "this is not a part of the bike which is directly related to riding safety." If you actually believe that, I won't try to correct you.

 

Just keep in mind that misconception is a bitch, and she doesn't care what people think is real or not. Ten years as a medic and 4 as a patrol officer has thought me that well. Often times people have misconceptions that are not based on facts, rather on motions, feelings, assumptions, and misinformation. Often those in my professions have  deal with the consequences of their erroneous believes for a short while. Sadly they have to live with those consequences for a long time, sometimes for the rest of their lives, and sometimes they don't get a second chance because they die. I have seen enough people die to give most nightmares.

Aviation's safety stats are based in several factors, but this is not the time and place for it. I will tell you though, based in the number of people that die every year (600-800) in commercial airliners world wide, you are more likely to die taking a shower. About 1,200 people die every years taking showers in the US alone. Chew in that one next time you take a shower. Haha!

 

Like I said before, misconception just like her sister assumptions is a bitch. In essence what what you are saying that if this was rocket science Yamaha would be more careful about about having misprints. Interesting!
 

Hmm, I have news for you, since I don't trust what most say and my technical level is high enough, I figured that there was more to this story that meets the eye. So I contacted some Yamaha techs and Yamaha. I have a friend who is an engineer at Yamaha.

 

I am not going to share everything they shared. Some of it might me too technical for most people here. That and some people have no understanding about metallurgic and what goes into developing fasteners and so on, but they'll argue like they did. I have noticed that already. 

 

What I will share with you right now, is that the 32 ft-lbs spec is... are you ready for it? Correct! That is right is right sweet cheeks, it is NOT a misprint. It is the official Yamaha spec.
 

Why are some stripping the bolt, well, that takes a long explanation. That and I am waiting to get some technical specs on the bolt and crush washer. Like what type of material they are made out of and some other good and fun stuff to.

 

That, and having the inquiring mind that I have, I have asked a friend if mine who is a Professor at Northrop University to help me conduct some experiments. But it will be a little while since we need to buy the supplies, get the instruments calibrated, and schedule some lab time. You know, fun stuff! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tenerider]

You're right, we should keep the discussion focused on the topic.

 

Definitely interested in your findings regarding the reasons for the comparably high torque specs. Have fun in the lab (not joking, I'm a former scientist).

 

And no, I'm not joking, but maybe need to differentiate better:

I really do believe that the state of wheels, chassis, brakes do have a higher influence on riding safety than said oil drench IN GENERAL. Can't provide statistical data to prove my point, though.

But it's obvious that a failure of this single drench screw could lead to fatal events (imagine a group ride, front rider loses oil, not funny...).

[CReamflourish]

On the subject of dodgy torque values....

 

I reckon the torque value on the rear sprocket nuts are a touch on the high side too.... 80Nm for an M10 locknut.  

 

[advsquid]

7 hours ago, Yasenia said:

I am not going to share everything they shared. Some of it might me too technical for most people here. That and some people have no understanding about metallurgic and what goes into developing fasteners and so on, but they'll argue like they did. I have noticed that already. 

 

What I will share with you right now, is that the 32 ft-lbs spec is... are you ready for it? Correct! That is right is right sweet cheeks, it is NOT a misprint. It is the official Yamaha spec.
 

Why are some stripping the bolt, well, that takes a long explanation. That and I am waiting to get some technical specs on the bolt and crush washer. Like what type of material they are made out of and some other good and fun stuff to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please elaborate! What did they tell you about why a drain plug requires 32 lb-ft of torque?  

[Alain2]

Never heard of a CP2 engine losing  oil with the drain plug torqued at 15-20ft-lbs.

+

Few CP2 engine cracked their casing with the drain plug torqued at 32 ft-lbs.

=

« My friend engineer bla bla bla…. »

 

 

[Ray Ride4life]

10 hours ago, Yasenia said:

I have a friend who is an engineer at Yamaha.

We have an engineer at work developing new products. Guess who is producing the prototypes and corrects the engineer?
Newsflash, people make mistakes (yes, me too) and the specified torque for the drainplug is simply way too much.
First time dry installation maybe but once used to drain the oil the bolt is also well lubricated increasing the force with the same torque value.
When filled up you have to warm the engine up for filling up the oil filter and check the level, at that point you can check if it's dry around the drain bolt and filter.
After that it only gets tighter due to heat cycles so the risk of over tightening is bigger than under tightening and that go's for every bolt in the engine.

In Europe a research stated that just under 1% of accidents with motorcycles are caused by bad maintenance and in those few cases most where not due to a bad execution but more a bad schedule.
Most accidents are single sided caused by rider error, double sided are also mostly human error and in this type of accident often caused by a car driver "i didn't see him/her".
About halve of that was actually still the motor rider at fault by riding like an idiot and completely understandable the car driver didn't see the bike coming.

 

Torque values are in most cases to prevent over tightening and not under tightening.
I mentioned the engine and heat cycles but the fork legs are also often overtightened because people are afraid the will slide through under braking but in fact they are compromising the suspension because the tube distorts with bad handling as a result.
If you don't know what you're doing use the toque specs and no, not knowing what you're doing is not  reason why people shouldn't work on their bike.
The only reason when not doing things yourself is when you lack common sense but those people are the cause of that 1% because you need common sense to know it's better not to do the work yourself.

[Johnny Fuel]

OP here. I'm not an engineer or scientist, but it seems to me torque specs in the owner's manual are intended for the owners, not exclusively technicians, professional mechanics, or material science engineers. This particular torque spec should have a wide tolerance range, so folks who over-tighten by a pound or two don't experience catastrophic engine damage. Our shade-tree mechanic's  wrenches are calibrated *perfectly* like a highly precise machine shop or scientific instrument—and Yamaha knows that. In my case, just approaching the spec cracked my case. (And I checked my wrenches.) I see it as a fail on Yamaha's part.

 

Moreover, the service manager at the Yamaha dealer where I purchased the bike made some calls. He told me that spec is wrong and the correct torque should be half that amount. I have no idea who he called or their title. I'm just an owner who likes to spin my own wrenches for routine maintenance like oil changes. 

 

That said, I'm interested in hearing how this torque spec is 'supposedly' correct. I'm happy to be educated and I'm all ears. All I know is following the manual led the cracking the case and a lot of headaches getting it fixed—and I wanted to warn others. 

 

 

[Alan M]

12 hours ago, Yasenia said:

I hope you were joking when you said that "this is not a part of the bike which is directly related to riding safety." If you actually believe that, I won't try to correct you.

 

Just keep in mind that misconception is a bitch, and she doesn't care what people think is real or not. Ten years as a medic and 4 as a patrol officer has thought me that well. Often times people have misconceptions that are not based on facts, rather on motions, feelings, assumptions, and misinformation. Often those in my professions have  deal with the consequences of their erroneous believes for a short while. Sadly they have to live with those consequences for a long time, sometimes for the rest of their lives, and sometimes they don't get a second chance because they die. I have seen enough people die to give most nightmares.

Aviation's safety stats are based in several factors, but this is not the time and place for it. I will tell you though, based in the number of people that die every year (600-800) in commercial airliners world wide, you are more likely to die taking a shower. About 1,200 people die every years taking showers in the US alone. Chew in that one next time you take a shower. Haha!

 

Like I said before, misconception just like her sister assumptions is a bitch. In essence what what you are saying that if this was rocket science Yamaha would be more careful about about having misprints. Interesting!
 

Hmm, I have news for you, since I don't trust what most say and my technical level is high enough, I figured that there was more to this story that meets the eye. So I contacted some Yamaha techs and Yamaha. I have a friend who is an engineer at Yamaha.

 

I am not going to share everything they shared. Some of it might me too technical for most people here. That and some people have no understanding about metallurgic and what goes into developing fasteners and so on, but they'll argue like they did. I have noticed that already. 

 

What I will share with you right now, is that the 32 ft-lbs spec is... are you ready for it? Correct! That is right is right sweet cheeks, it is NOT a misprint. It is the official Yamaha spec.
 

Why are some stripping the bolt, well, that takes a long explanation. That and I am waiting to get some technical specs on the bolt and crush washer. Like what type of material they are made out of and some other good and fun stuff to.

 

That, and having the inquiring mind that I have, I have asked a friend if mine who is a Professor at Northrop University to help me conduct some experiments. But it will be a little while since we need to buy the supplies, get the instruments calibrated, and schedule some lab time. You know, fun stuff! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Since you don’t trust what most folk say why trust the Yamaha tech.

 

 With a little googling you can find plenty of unhappy customers who have got their bike back from a franchise workshop with extra broken bits thrown in for free.

 

Torque settings are just to guide the less experienced out there.

 

Mind, still interested in hearing the results of your experiments

[Yasenia]

7 hours ago, Alan M said:

Since you don’t trust what most folk say why trust the Yamaha tech.

 

 With a little googling you can find plenty of unhappy customers who have got their bike back from a franchise workshop with extra broken bits thrown in for free.

 

Torque settings are just to guide the less experienced out there.

 

Mind, still interested in hearing the results of your experiments

 

8 hours ago, Johnny Fuel said:

OP here. I'm not an engineer or scientist, but it seems to me torque specs in the owner's manual are intended for the owners, not exclusively technicians, professional mechanics, or material science engineers. This particular torque spec should have a wide tolerance range, so folks who over-tighten by a pound or two don't experience catastrophic engine damage. Our shade-tree mechanic's  wrenches are calibrated *perfectly* like a highly precise machine shop or scientific instrument—and Yamaha knows that. In my case, just approaching the spec cracked my case. (And I checked my wrenches.) I see it as a fail on Yamaha's part.

 

Moreover, the service manager at the Yamaha dealer where I purchased the bike made some calls. He told me that spec is wrong and the correct torque should be half that amount. I have no idea who he called or their title. I'm just an owner who likes to spin my own wrenches for routine maintenance like oil changes. 

 

That said, I'm interested in hearing how this torque spec is 'supposedly' correct. I'm happy to be educated and I'm all ears. All I know is following the manual led the cracking the case and a lot of headaches getting it fixed—and I wanted to warn others. 

 

 

Thank you, this is exactly the stuff we need. That is some valuable information that can help us figure out how to move forward with our testing.  I have some questions for you but will be posting them in a separate commend, I would like to hears from those that have experienced the problem. 

 

 

 

 

[Yasenia]

16 hours ago, advsquid said:

Please elaborate! What did they tell you about why a drain plug requires 32 lb-ft of torque?  

I will be writing more about it as I can verify a few things. I was told some things that made me wonder. So before I pass on misinformation I need to ask some more questions. At this point I am more concerned about getting iut own testing off the ground. Funding is the biggest factor. 

[Alan M]

27 minutes ago, Yasenia said:

I will be writing more about it as I can verify a few things. I was told some things that made me wonder. So before I pass on misinformation I need to ask some more questions. At this point I am more concerned about getting iut own testing off the ground. Funding is the biggest factor. 

Got it now, it’s a wind up.

 

[Yasenia]

11 hours ago, Alan M said:

Since you don’t trust what most folk say why trust the Yamaha tech.

 

 With a little googling you can find plenty of unhappy customers who have got their bike back from a franchise workshop with extra broken bits thrown in for free.

 

Torque settings are just to guide the less experienced out there.

 

Mind, still interested in hearing the results of your experiments

I try to give people the benefit if the doubt, until I can prove or disprove their claims. And that goes for techs and even engineers. That is why I asked more than one tech and if possible more than one engineer. Do you get where I am going with that? 
 

I need to gather some more information to gives us a better plan of how to approach the testing. Funding is definitely a hurtle to overcome.

 

We need to acquire a few pans, bolts, and crush washers. As of the number of pans depends what we hear from people. Both from those who have had problems and from those who haven't. I have chatted with some who have changed the oil in their bikes several times and have never had a problem torquing the plug to 32 ft-lbs. They think that those who have had a problem have no idea what they are doing. I don't think that, some may be, but we are suspecting more manufacturing defect of the oil pans or the threads. That would be one possible explanation, but not in every case. Some may be due to torque wrenches that are off.

 

In essence we want to test the materials in several pans. Some used and some new. We need one to be the control specimen, and were are thing two to three for variables.

 

It takes a bit of thinking and a few calculations and many other things to factor in. We need to replicate heat cycles, material used for all components, they molecular structor before and once the bolds have gone through x number of " tension and relaxation cycles," and a few other things. At the end this pans will be destroyed as they test for tensile strength. Without exception all but one will have to be new pans. Two to three (or four - the more the better) will be destroyed even with not being used once. They will be the units used to establish a "baseline" of material tensile strength, production line quality and consistency. Sort of speak. That has to be also done with the bolts and crush washers. 

 

Different parts of the pan, including the threats, will be "punched," and even cut to study the molecular patterns and direction. 
 

We are talking a few thousands if dollars. Of course we could just do it the easy and fun way. Buy a new pan, bolt, a 25 crush washers and wrench away. Can we make it to 25 cycles (simulating a bike with 100,000 miles with 25 oil changes, one every 4,000 miles).

 

The problem is that if we run into trouble we are going to look at each other like idiots wondering what happened. The why's and how's. Without a control unit and others for comparison and different testing we'll be back to square one.

 

If we make it to 25 cycles without a problem, what does that mean to those that have had problems? Did they did something wrong? Not necessarily. One reasons we would need a few used pans with their pairing bolts from different random bikes and owners. It will give us an idea on what people are doing to these bikes out there. 
 

One thing I can say is that this is not something that gets done in a week. Last time we tested brake components for a specific Japanese car brand it took us about 7 months. Including the time it took John to finish the charts and report. I can't help him with that, that's something way above my level of knowledge. And he has do to it during his spare time. The final report was just short of 620 pages long. We submitted that to the factory and they reimbursed for the money we spent. With the condition of not releasing the findings to the public and the promise of fixing the issue and giving us access to the factory's own testing to verify compliance with what we asked.

 

For me the most difficult part is telling my friend John that I want to do this because of a thread in a forum. He is a very straight forward no nonsense type of guy who hates forums and social media with a passion. "I can fix a plane or rocket, not people suffering from a bad case of Dunning Kruger Effect and connective dissonance. That's someone else's job and profession."

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chev.]

Thanks, Johnny, for sharing the story, and to the rest of you for comments.

 

After changing oil for the first time on my new T7 today at 1267 kilometers (787 miles), I did use a torque wrench. But i tried at the same time to apply some 'feel'. With a new aluminum crush washer, I first torqued the plug to 30 nm (22 ft-lbs), but then snugged it up to 35 nm (26 ft-lbs). I feel very confident that's tight enough - and certainly no leaks observed.

 

Independently of what is more 'correct' or not, would anyone have a theory on why Yamaha for so many of their bikes apply higher torque values for the oil drain plug, compared to other brands? - I do not believe it's due to misprints.

 

Thanks guys

Edited April 26, 2022 by Chev.

[Chev.]

Oh, and btw - yes, I will take the bike to the dealer for the 600 mile service. It's just that it won't happen before in a week from now, and then the bike will have run more than 1500 kilometer (more than 900 miles), so I was more comfortable getting the oil change done now.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Chev.

[Johnny Fuel]

1 hour ago, Chev. said:

Oh, and btw - yes, I will take the bike to the dealer for the 600 mile service. It's just that i won't happen before in a week from now, and then the bike will have run more than 1500 kilometer (more than 900 miles), so I was more comfortable getting the oil change done now.

 

1 hour ago, Chev. said:

Independently of what is more 'correct' or not, would anyone have a theory on why Yamaha for so many of bikes apply higher torque values for the oil drain plug, compared to other brands? - I do not believe it's due to misprints.

 

I couldn't say if this is a habit for Yamaha. I only had this one Yamaha model and thus this one experience. Maybe others would know?

[vagrant318]

On 9/27/2020 at 3:18 PM, Johnny Fuel said:

According to the dealer, they recommend about half the printed torque specs, so instead of 32 lb/ft it should be about 16 lb/ft. That's certainly what I'm going to do next time!

Glad to find this info, Ill be draining my oil prematurely and checking everything out since Ive done about 5 ish oil changes with 32 ft/lbs. It certainly seemed like a lot but on a brand new machine I want to follow manufacturers specs to a T. Its a bit concerning to find such a gross misprint about such a routine maintenance procedure. My DRZ drain plugs are both 13 ft lbs but who am  I to question the manufacturer, damn..

[vagrant318]

Performed an expensive little experiment tonight. Drained my oil after roughly 1k miles.

Wiped off the drain plug and torqued to 194 inch lbs, roughly 16 ft lbs. This was barely squeezing the crush washer. Then I tightened by feel using a ratchet cranking to encountering resistance and another quarter turn or so. BTW I always use a new aluminum crush washer. Using my inch lbs torque wrench I checked torque going up to 360 inch lbs or 30 ft lbs. As in it was already torqued by feel to 30 ft/lbs and was tight but not crazy tight by any means. So I stand by the manual being correct, stripping things is much more likely without a new proper crush washer. Used on right, new on left, the deformation isn't going to occur at even 20 ft/lbs. Anyway just to provide another view regarding this entire thread and the manual being wrong. Ymmv and all that but I stand by my findings

Edited June 10, 2022 by vagrant318

[thepointchris]

38 minutes ago, vagrant318 said:

Performed an expensive little experiment tonight. Drained my oil after roughly 1k miles.

Wiped off the drain plug and torqued to 194 inch lbs, roughly 16 ft lbs. This was barely squeezing the crush washer. Then I tightened by hand using a ratchet cranking to encountering resistance and another quarter turn or so. BTW I always use a new aluminum crush washer. Using my inch lbs torque wrench I went up to 360 inch lbs or 30 ft lbs. This was tight but not crazy. So I stand by the manual being correct, stripping things is likely without new proper crush washer. Used on right, new on left, has to happen somehow. Anyway just to provide another view regarding this entire thread and the manual being wrong. Ymmv and all that but I stand by my findings

fair comment, thx for that

[Hibobb]

On 11/22/2020 at 8:36 PM, concours said:

I've been making my own magnetic drain plugs for years. T7 got it today.

@concours, simple... Thanks! I just ordered a 10-pack of 6MM dia x 10mm magnets for $7 delivered to my mailbox.

 

6mm x 10 mm N50 Strong Round Disc Cylinder Magnets Rare Earth Neodymium

---

• Neodymium magnets are usually coated Nickel-Copper-Nickel plating to prevent the iron from rusting. •Magnets Type: Neodymium. • Safety Warning about handling neodymium...

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Hibobb

[Hibobb]

On 6/9/2022 at 11:20 PM, vagrant318 said:

Used on right, new on left, the deformation isn't going to occur at even 20 ft/lbs

@vagrant318, you can use your old crush washer for a grommet on a tarp! It my wee mind, what we are calling the crush washer acts like the copper washer on brake lines, and is meant to distort slightly, to seal up any surface irregularities. Squishing the heck out of it is overkill and is of no real benefit, especially with the reports of stripped threads. These are just my thoughts and are worth what you just paid for them....

Edited August 3, 2022 by Hibobb

[Rocky_Mtn_T7]

It looks like Yamaha is still listing the torque spec as 43 N-m / 32 lb-ft, for the 2022 T7 and MT-07. Both are from the downloadable pdf files on the Yamaha Canada website.

 

https://www.yamaha-dealers.ca/ymca/web/public/ownersManuals/?locale=en_CA

 

And since these are from pdf files, they can say it's a paper printing error. :o(

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Rocky_Mtn_T7

[vagrant318]

On 8/3/2022 at 10:49 AM, Hibobb said:

@vagrant318, you can use your old crush washer for a grommet on a tarp! It my wee mind, what we are calling the crush washer acts like the copper washer on brake lines, and is meant to distort slightly, to seal up any surface irregularities. Squishing the heck out of it is overkill and is of no real benefit, especially with the reports of stripped threads. These are just my thoughts and are worth what you just paid for them....

They are very soft single use aluminum crush washers. That one was torqued with a 1/2" torque wrench and admittedly overkill but designed to distort. Id rather have that than lose my oil.. I have since gone to using a 1/4" ratchet to a bit past tight and 1/4" torque wrench to about 28 ft/lbs. The last crush washer I did this with was much less distorted.

BTW on my DRZ the crush washers are the same amount distorted from 13 ft/lbs but they are metric 13 not 17. This is my own little experiment on this issue and my results I feel like confirm Yamaha spec is not a typo.