T7 Dyno Graph Breakdowns

[mpatch]

24 minutes ago, Danedo said:

@2wdw what’s the latest on ecu programming that deletes the ABS unit completely? I’m wanting to go to a YZ style braking setup. 

You don’t need a tune for that if you don’t mind the abs light being lit. 

[Danedo]

58 minutes ago, mpatch said:

You don’t need a tune for that if you don’t mind the abs light being lit. 

Ya, I’m wanting to remove the entire unit/system. The speedo and several other things run through the abs unit so it will require a tune of some sort. 

[2 Wheel DynoWorks]

On 8/29/2021 at 8:53 PM, Danedo said:

@2wdw what’s the latest on ecu programming that deletes the ABS unit completely? I’m wanting to go to a YZ style braking setup. 

It won't ever exist. ABS is partially controlled by the module on the ABS block itself, not entirely (or even mostly) by the ECU. 

[TimeMachine]

@2 Wheel DynoWorks I have been running your tune on my T7 for about 10 months now and it is the best upgrade available for the T7. Throttle control is sweet, more power everywhere and runs much smoother and cooler. I am using the full Ti SC Projects exhaust and a custom intake lid, prefilter and WMR main filter.
My brother recently purchased the Rottweiler intake for his 890R and the performance gains are huge. I was wondering if someone has done something similar for the T7 with the original airbox or a replacement airbox suitable for dusty off-road conditions? I am aware of the Hordpower airbox but looking for something that allows a foam main filter and/or a prefilter. Can the Hordpower airbox be used with a foam air filter? I am also aware of @Aleksandar13 mod which is possibly the road I would explore next if I cant find something with an airbox.

Another option I have been looking at modifying the internal twin snorkels inside the OEM airbox. Has anyone tried this, perhaps replacing with tuned snorkels similar to the Hordpower runner lengths?

Would be good to know what people have tried. Any thoughts @pgeldz?

[pgeldz]

40 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

@2 Wheel DynoWorks I have been running your tune on my T7 for about 10 months now and it is the best upgrade available for the T7. Throttle control is sweet, more power everywhere and runs much smoother and cooler. I am using the full Ti SC Projects exhaust and a custom intake lid, prefilter and WMR main filter.
My brother recently purchased the Rottweiler intake for his 890R and the performance gains are huge. I was wondering if someone has done something similar for the T7 with the original airbox or a replacement airbox suitable for dusty off-road conditions? I am aware of the Hordpower airbox but looking for something that allows a foam main filter and/or a prefilter. Can the Hordpower airbox be used with a foam air filter? I am also aware of @Aleksandar13 mod which is possibly the road I would explore next if I cant find something with an airbox.

Another option I have been looking at modifying the internal twin snorkels inside the OEM airbox. Has anyone tried this, perhaps replacing with tuned snorkels similar to the Hordpower runner lengths?

Would be good to know what people have tried. Any thoughts @pgeldz?

 

@TimeMachine I worked with Carbonsmith a while back to come up with an alternative solution for the best gains.  We developed (meaning Carbonsmith developed) 3d printed carbon fiber tuned velocity stacks with very special MWR race filters for MAXIMUM power.  There are long and short versions.  I'm using this on my MotoAmerica FZ-07 racebike, and two of the top performing Yamaha FZ-07's in the series are also using them with great success.  

 

However, not sure on the packaging on the Tenere, and it's DEFINITELY not suitable for off road conditions.

 

I've worked with MWR to make that Air Box cover you spoke of, and it really works best with an MWR filter for many reasons (matched opening, more surface area of filter material, etc).  We co-developed a new filter-cage lid replacement, that houses a sock of special material for extreme dusty conditions (same type of filter sock that the Dakar teams use), but the spacing is limited under the stock seat due to the two plastic rubber seat supports that jet out from the seat pan and the cage interferes.

 

I have a one-piece seat concepts seat coming, so I need to check compatibility with that, as the bottom of their seat pan looks different and the filter cage might work.

 

For stock seat users, it's possible to cut those two "prongs" off the stock seat but I wasn't sure if that would weaken the seat or not.  I'm hearing some company made an aluminum lid for a snorkel delete in which you HAVE to cut those two prongs off the factory seat in order for it to work, and I haven't heard of seats breaking so it might be worth a try.

 

I just wanted to have a more OEM bolt on experience for folks so MWR did development with that in mind.

 

Cliffs Notes:  There is an MWR Filter Cage that was developed to utilize the superior MWR Filter with EXTREME off road protection, but further compatibility testing is needed (either cut stock seat, or Seat Conceps one-piece seat).

 

You can see what Carbonsmith/MWR Racing intake solution looks like here:

 

 

And here it is on my bike...and yes, it's actually an FZ-07

 

 

 

The MWR Filtercage solution for the Tenere can be seen here:

 

 

And you can read all about it here:

 

https://www.tenere700.net/topic/1547-mwr-releases-new-product-teaser-video/

 

 

 

- Paul

Edited September 16, 2021 by pgeldz

[2 Wheel DynoWorks]

2 hours ago, TimeMachine said:

@2 Wheel DynoWorks I have been running your tune on my T7 for about 10 months now and it is the best upgrade available for the T7. Throttle control is sweet, more power everywhere and runs much smoother and cooler. I am using the full Ti SC Projects exhaust and a custom intake lid, prefilter and WMR main filter.
My brother recently purchased the Rottweiler intake for his 890R and the performance gains are huge. I was wondering if someone has done something similar for the T7 with the original airbox or a replacement airbox suitable for dusty off-road conditions? I am aware of the Hordpower airbox but looking for something that allows a foam main filter and/or a prefilter. Can the Hordpower airbox be used with a foam air filter? I am also aware of @Aleksandar13 mod which is possibly the road I would explore next if I cant find something with an airbox.

Another option I have been looking at modifying the internal twin snorkels inside the OEM airbox. Has anyone tried this, perhaps replacing with tuned snorkels similar to the Hordpower runner lengths?

Would be good to know what people have tried. Any thoughts @pgeldz?

Awesome! We're glad to hear it.

 

The single best intake ever made for the CP2 engines is made by JD Hord and is known as the Hordpower intake. We have tried every other system out there, including the short runner pod filters (like Carbon Smith's) and they suck...to put it bluntly. The improvements are usually less than 2hp. 

 

Hord figured out the right combination of runner length and box size to maximize performance a long time ago for these engines, which is why his setup is by far and wide the most recommended in the FZ/MT-07 and XSR700 market.

 

We have mapping already built for his intake kits paired up with just about every exhaust imaginable as well!

 

-2WDW

[TimeMachine]

3 hours ago, pgeldz said:

 

@TimeMachine I worked with Carbonsmith a while back to come up with an alternative solution for the best gains.  We developed (meaning Carbonsmith developed) 3d printed carbon fiber tuned velocity stacks with very special MWR race filters for MAXIMUM power.  There are long and short versions.  I'm using this on my MotoAmerica FZ-07 racebike, and two of the top performing Yamaha FZ-07's in the series are also using them with great success.  

 

However, not sure on the packaging on the Tenere, and it's DEFINITELY not suitable for off road conditions.

 

I've worked with MWR to make that Air Box cover you spoke of, and it really works best with an MWR filter for many reasons (matched opening, more surface area of filter material, etc).  We co-developed a new filter-cage lid replacement, that houses a sock of special material for extreme dusty conditions (same type of filter sock that the Dakar teams use), but the spacing is limited under the stock seat due to the two plastic rubber seat supports that jet out from the seat pan and the cage interferes.

 

I have a one-piece seat concepts seat coming, so I need to check compatibility with that, as the bottom of their seat pan looks different and the filter cage might work.

 

For stock seat users, it's possible to cut those two "prongs" off the stock seat but I wasn't sure if that would weaken the seat or not.  I'm hearing some company made an aluminum lid for a snorkel delete in which you HAVE to cut those two prongs off the factory seat in order for it to work, and I haven't heard of seats breaking so it might be worth a try.

 

I just wanted to have a more OEM bolt on experience for folks so MWR did development with that in mind.

 

Cliffs Notes:  There is an MWR Filter Cage that was developed to utilize the superior MWR Filter with EXTREME off road protection, but further compatibility testing is needed (either cut stock seat, or Seat Conceps one-piece seat).

 

You can see what Carbonsmith/MWR Racing intake solution looks like here:

 

 

And here it is on my bike...and yes, it's actually an FZ-07

 

 

 

The MWR Filtercage solution for the Tenere can be seen here:

 

 

And you can read all about it here:

 

https://www.tenere700.net/topic/1547-mwr-releases-new-product-teaser-video/

 

 

 

- Paul

Thanks for your reply Paul. That intake looks remarkably similar to the one my son developed early 2020  Great minds think alike!

 

Do you have dyno results on that CarbonSmith intake? What other mods have you made to make that work? It might help clarify the benefits.

[TimeMachine]

1 hour ago, 2 Wheel DynoWorks said:

Awesome! We're glad to hear it.

 

The single best intake ever made for the CP2 engines is made by JD Hord and is known as the Hordpower intake. We have tried every other system out there, including the short runner pod filters (like Carbon Smith's) and they suck...to put it bluntly. The improvements are usually less than 2hp. 

 

Hord figured out the right combination of runner length and box size to maximize performance a long time ago for these engines, which is why his setup is by far and wide the most recommended in the FZ/MT-07 and XSR700 market.

 

We have mapping already built for his intake kits paired up with just about every exhaust imaginable as well!

 

-2WDW

Thanks 2WDW. I was looking at the Hord solution closely, with the idea of enclosing it inside a large box or replacing the paper filter with a foam filter much like the rottweiler one (which is just a Honda off-road air filter I believe). If  you have seen the Hord solution, do you think this is possible? Does it have a flat backing plate that could be the base to fit a different foam air filter? The photos on Hords website dont really show enough detail.

I take it you haven't seen any mods to the internal trumpets of the OEM airbox. I would love to try a few things. 

 

 

[jeff936]

I've been toying with the idea of an airbox out of composites, similar to the rottweiler (I understand it's not an easy task) using MT07 velocity stacks to provide a straighter path, but maintain a similar length which I believe is important to keep the power in the same rev range. (I'm no expert on that, just what I've read) 

The other reason is to drop another 500 grams on my way to a 180kg T7.

 

My thoughts are to use the space where the snorkel sits to increase the height at the rear of the airbox which would allow for the fitment of the straighter MT07 stacks or similar. 

But I'm stuck on the filter arrangement, and don't want the filter inside the airbox.

Still need to keep it as high as possible for water crossings and needs to be foam.

 

So--

Do the same as rottweiler and shorten the length of the airbox and mount the filter on the back?

or put a flat style filter on top? (WR450 style)  

 

Would like to get people's thoughts if I'm taking on too much or any guidance/opinions.  

 

Thanks

 

[pgeldz]

@TimeMachine Carbon Smith had the graphs from when they developed their stacks.

.

The engine used had cams, bored throttle bodies, full exhaust, etc.  I believe initial testing showed it lost like .5 HP in the midrange compared to the Hordpower, but gained 4 HP up top. 4HP is quite a lot.

.

We've learned the stack length and exhaust length play a critical role in final power figures, and where that power is stronger, which is why they developed a longer set of stacks for different length exhausts.

.

The bike this was tested on had the Hordpower solution, and when it was taken off to install our solution, the inside of the K&N filter was covered in engine oil, since the crankcase breather vents directly into the paper filter.

.

I didn't like that idea as that would reduce performance over time, so we came up with an external catch can to prevent that.

.

As far as the Carbon Smith/MWR Racing Intake Solution "sucking" and only making a 2 hp gain, that simply wasn't true in our testing conditions.

.

Recently, a guy installed it in his FZ-07 with a map sent to him by 2WDW and was over the moon with it.  You can read about it here https://fz07.org/thread/13091/carbonsmith-mwr-racing-intake-solution-is-here/?do=findComment&comment=185507

.

Design is similar to HD in that it's an airbox-less solution with a filter on the end, but ours uses a much better filter material (same stuff used in WSBK by 6 time consecutive Champion Jonathan Rae) that flows much better and has much more surface area.

.

Our solution was originally developed for my bike, not to market or sell or make money from it, but it worked so well others wanted it, so we made it available, and now the two top Yamahas in MotoAmerica are using it with great success

.

With all that being said though I don't think either of these solutions is right for the Tenere, even if you found a good way to shield it from the elements.  The reason I say this is because most of that power with these solutions is more in the top of the RPM range which is great for road racing, but I would think for a heavier ADV bike off road you'd want more in the low-end and mid-range.

Edited September 17, 2021 by pgeldz

[TimeMachine]

3 hours ago, pgeldz said:

@TimeMachine Carbon Smith had the graphs from when they developed their stacks.

.

The engine used had cams, bored throttle bodies, full exhaust, etc.  I believe initial testing showed it lost like .5 HP in the midrange compared to the Hordpower, but gained 4 HP up top. 4HP is quite a lot.

.

We've learned the stack length and exhaust length play a critical role in final power figures, and where that power is stronger, which is why they developed a longer set of stacks for different length exhausts.

.

The bike this was tested on had the Hordpower solution, and when it was taken off to install our solution, the inside of the K&N filter was covered in engine oil, since the crankcase breather vents directly into the paper filter.

.

I didn't like that idea as that would reduce performance over time, so we came up with an external catch can to prevent that.

.

As far as the Carbon Smith/MWR Racing Intake Solution "sucking" and only making a 2 hp gain, that simply wasn't true in our testing conditions.

.

Design is similar to HD in that it's an airbox-less solution with a filter on the end, but ours uses a much better filter material (same stuff used in WSBK by 6 time consecutive Champion Jonathan Rae) that flows much better and has much more surface area.

.

Our solution was originally developed for my bike, not to market or sell or make money from it, but it worked so well others wanted it, so we made it available, and now the two top Yamahas in MotoAmerica are using it with great success

Thanks for the details Paul. Those 3D printed velocity stacks look trick. I still couldn't find any dyno charts even on CarbonSmith website. 

[TimeMachine]

4 hours ago, jeff936 said:

I've been toying with the idea of an airbox out of composites, similar to the rottweiler (I understand it's not an easy task) using MT07 velocity stacks to provide a straighter path, but maintain a similar length which I believe is important to keep the power in the same rev range. (I'm no expert on that, just what I've read) 

The other reason is to drop another 500 grams on my way to a 180kg T7.

 

My thoughts are to use the space where the snorkel sits to increase the height at the rear of the airbox which would allow for the fitment of the straighter MT07 stacks or similar. 

But I'm stuck on the filter arrangement, and don't want the filter inside the airbox.

Still need to keep it as high as possible for water crossings and needs to be foam.

 

So--

Do the same as rottweiler and shorten the length of the airbox and mount the filter on the back?

or put a flat style filter on top? (WR450 style)  

 

Would like to get people's thoughts if I'm taking on too much or any guidance/opinions.  

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah that airbox is begging to be cut through just in front of the old lid. Trouble is there is no going back after that!  Then fit a full sized foam air filter on the back. Or perhaps just cut out the top of the back half of the box so that a filter can be fit inside as if it was cut through but leaving walls and floor around the filter. This would leave the rear mounts in place.

 

Those internal snorkels could be shortened by about 2/3rds, but would need the ends flared smoothly with some trumpets. Would be good to know the length of the Hordpower runners and work to that.

[pgeldz]

1 hour ago, TimeMachine said:

Thanks for the details Paul. Those 3D printed velocity stacks look trick. I still couldn't find any dyno charts even on CarbonSmith website. 

Yeah, they do look pretty trick.  However, even if you replicated them to make a new air box, or found a way to shield the Hordpower box with his runners, I still maintain that high RPM power isn't where I'd want this bike to make more power. 

 

I'm a complete noob off road, but that's what I'm building my Tenere for, and those I've talked to say you're rarely in the upper end of the RPM range when riding off road

 

Having said that, I'll be using the MWR filter and hopefully MWR Filtercage with cover for extreme conditions when I can figure that solution out

Edited September 17, 2021 by pgeldz

[TimeMachine]

9 hours ago, pgeldz said:

Yeah, they do look pretty trick.  However, even if you replicated them to make a new air box, or found a way to shield the Hordpower box with his runners, I still maintain that high RPM power isn't where I'd want this bike to make more power. 

 

I'm a complete noob off road, but that's what I'm building my Tenere for, and those I've talked to say you're rarely in the upper end of the RPM range when riding off road

 

Having said that, I'll be using the MWR filter and hopefully MWR Filtercage with cover for extreme conditions when I can figure that solution out

I agree with the comments about torque, but the torque at the bottom below 4000 with the 2WDW map and things I have already done to my bike has the right power to scrabble up slippery slopes without trying to spinout. So dont really need to increase that.

 

The Hordpower solution shows there is a way to retain the low down torque, build on the midrange to over 50 ftlbs and hold the power through to redline. Happy for 2WDW to correct me here but that is what I am reading from the graphs, assuming Hord's results are comparable to 2WDW. I guess the only way to find out if it's an improvement is to buy the Hordpower airbox and 2WDW's tune for it.

 

A question for @2 Wheel DynoWorks, now that I already have your tune on my bike, what do I need to get a new tune from you for the Hordpower solution and apply it to my bike? Can I get an FTECU tool to apply it and avoid sending my ECU to the US? Can I then switch between tunes?

[2 Wheel DynoWorks]

On 9/17/2021 at 6:42 PM, TimeMachine said:

I agree with the comments about torque, but the torque at the bottom below 4000 with the 2WDW map and things I have already done to my bike has the right power to scrabble up slippery slopes without trying to spinout. So dont really need to increase that.

 

The Hordpower solution shows there is a way to retain the low down torque, build on the midrange to over 50 ftlbs and hold the power through to redline. Happy for 2WDW to correct me here but that is what I am reading from the graphs, assuming Hord's results are comparable to 2WDW. I guess the only way to find out if it's an improvement is to buy the Hordpower airbox and 2WDW's tune for it.

 

A question for @2 Wheel DynoWorks, now that I already have your tune on my bike, what do I need to get a new tune from you for the Hordpower solution and apply it to my bike? Can I get an FTECU tool to apply it and avoid sending my ECU to the US? Can I then switch between tunes?

Our customers always have two solutions to flashing their bikes. Both come with free updates.

 

If you've purchased our Mail-In ECU Flashing Service, then you have to send it back to us. 

 

If you've purchased your own FTECU flashing kit and our 2WDW Custom Mapping, then simply email us at support@2wheeldynoworks.com and we'll send over an updated file.

 

Both options are available at 2WDW.com

 

-2WDW

[Danedo]

On 8/31/2021 at 10:19 AM, 2 Wheel DynoWorks said:

It won't ever exist. ABS is partially controlled by the module on the ABS block itself, not entirely (or even mostly) by the ECU. 

FTECU will be releasing an ABS delete system in a couple months. Will your tune work the same with this?

[2 Wheel DynoWorks]

1 hour ago, Danedo said:

FTECU will be releasing an ABS delete system in a couple months. Will your tune work the same with this?

Of course! The ABS delete dongles don't ever interfere with our custom mapping.

[prowlnS10]

Is the O2 sensor & closed loop still retained with your ecu flash OR is it disabled, but can remain connected OR does it require being disconnected with a dongle?

[Aleksandar13]

On 8/30/2021 at 5:20 AM, mpatch said:

You don’t need a tune for that if you don’t mind the abs light being lit. 

 

hhttp://veloxracing.com/ 

[2 Wheel DynoWorks]

4 hours ago, prowlnS10 said:

Is the O2 sensor & closed loop still retained with your ecu flash OR is it disabled, but can remain connected OR does it require being disconnected with a dongle?

We leave it functional, but if you have a weird flat spot between 2-3k RPMs at incredibly light throttle, we recommend unplugging it and it will default to our custom open loop mapping. For most owners and riders, this is not an issue. 

[bylynka]

hi! @2 Wheel DynoWorks  

I have a couple of questions

1. Run 35(full stock, removed snorkel) map. 

Will catalytic converter get more load in case of using this map? As I understand mixture will be richer, more unburned fuel and catalytic converter has to do more job. Could it be reason catalytic converter will break down sooner?

 

2. Let's consider a situation I install new headers without catalytic converter but leave stock muffler (I want to be as quiet as possible. I think stock muffler is quiet enough please correct me if there is another option) and send you ECU to remap for such configuration. 
Should be bike re-maped again if I decide to install some aftermarket muffler later?

 

3. Does charcoal canister influence somehow on FI system? Could it be removed without any consequences?

 

Thank you in advance and sorry for my English:)

[2 Wheel DynoWorks]

5 hours ago, bylynka said:

hi! @2 Wheel DynoWorks  

I have a couple of questions

1. Run 35(full stock, removed snorkel) map. 

Will catalytic converter get more load in case of using this map? As I understand mixture will be richer, more unburned fuel and catalytic converter has to do more job. Could it be reason catalytic converter will break down sooner?

 

2. Let's consider a situation I install new headers without catalytic converter but leave stock muffler (I want to be as quiet as possible. I think stock muffler is quiet enough please correct me if there is another option) and send you ECU to remap for such configuration. 
Should be bike re-maped again if I decide to install some aftermarket muffler later?

 

3. Does charcoal canister influence somehow on FI system? Could it be removed without any consequences?

 

Thank you in advance and sorry for my English:)

1) No, it is not a significant enough restriction to actually change the load tables that are referenced in the mapping, nor is load even referenced at WOT on these bikes. All WOT mapping is TPS v RPM. With our custom mapping, the cat will last just as long as it would have it stock configuration. The stock mapping is lean in some areas and overly rich in others, so the net average change in fuel volume that the catalytic converter sees is negligible.

 

2) Not likely, no. The stock muffler simply isn't much of a restriction. There are some mufflers that use odd baffles that make significant changes to optimal fuel volumes, but they're few and far between. 

 

3) No, it does not. Yes, it can.

 

For specific scenario questions, we always encourage folks to email us at support@2wheeldynoworks.com for a faster response time!

 

-2WDW

[Cruizin]

Bumping for those who don't know about Tuning their Tenere 700. Lots of good info in this thread! 

[Hollybrook]

Has anyone had recent contact with @2 Wheel DynoWorks? 

 

I have an issue with a flash they did for me and have not been able to get a response through email or by leaving a phone message.

[dashredder]

I had my ecu flashed a few weeks ago and they were pretty quick to respond to emails during and then also a few weeks later when I inquired about a DB killer being removed.  They are closed Sunday / Monday so maybe catching up?  
 

what was the issue with your tune?