How light can one make a Tenere 700 ? What weighs what ?

[ADV Newbie]

A stock Tenere has a dry weight of 412 pounds.

 

The CP2 engine weighs 115 pounds, with EFI but no airbox, exhaust or fluids.

 

The Tenere 700 frame weighs 39 pounds, including the non detachable rear sub frame.

 

The stock lead acid battery (Yuasa YTZ10S) weighs 6.7 pounds.

 

The stock exhaust system (with Cat converter ?) weighs 6.1 Kg or 13.42 pounds.

 

What does everything else weigh ?   How does one remove 50 pounds from a T700 ?

 

115+ 39 + 6.7 + 13.42 = 175 pounds out of 412 lbs.    Where is the other 237 pounds ?  A complete YZ250FX weighs about 240 pounds dry...

 

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by ADV Newbie

[Tazmool]

Your list leaves out a huge amount of components, and everything weighs something. 

Forks, calipers, rims, rotors, tires, tubes, abs rings, sensors, brake lines, fittings, brake fluid, reflectors, fender, brake pads, fork oil, triple clamps etc etc.
And that's just the front end...

Now think about the rest of the bike, and all the components.

Comparing it to a YZ, the Tenere has a LOT more equipment, and the components that are on both the YZ and T7, the T7 is much beefier and heavier.   Much different missions for the two bikes too.

 

I weighed my stock T7 at 455lbs, removing 50 lbs from it would be fairly tough, but not impossible.  It would take some fairly expensive replacements, and a lot of component cutting.

 

I should also mention that looking at "dry weights" is absolutely pointless.  Curb weight is all that matters.  
A "dry weight bike" better be ultra light, since you'll be pushing it everywhere....

 

Tazmool

[ADV Newbie]

33 minutes ago, Tazmool said:

Quote

Comparing it to a YZ, the Tenere has a LOT more equipment, and the components that are on both the YZ and T7, the T7 is much beefier and heavier.

 

 

Nope.   

 

YZ forks are heavier- 48mm dia versus 43.  Longer too.

The T7 triple clamp does not look any heavier.  Lighter, in fact.

The Tenere chain is 525.  YZ is 520.  But the YZ rear sprocket has more teeth on it.  YZ sprocket is aluminum. WR is steel.

The YZ shock is definitely heavier.  Longer stroke, bigger diameter, longer spring.   Tenere spring is   235-240mm long x 55mm ID.   YZ shock spring is 275 x about 60mm.

 

 

Quote

 

Quote

I should also mention that looking at "dry weights" is absolutely pointless.  Curb weight is all that matters.  

A "dry weight bike" better be ultra light, since you'll be pushing it everywhere....

 

 

Everyone likes to put a different size fuel tank on their bike, so dry weight is a more appropriate measure.   Otherwise people are always correcting a bike's wet weight for how much fuel it is carrying to make an equal comparison.

Edited December 13, 2020 by ADV Newbie

[Alf Meister]

Standard exhaust/silencer and wheels/disc’s/sprocket are very heavy, replace those with the lightest available and your’ll shed probably 10kg’s. Then you could replace all steel nuts and bolts with alloy or titanium and save a kg. Replace all the brake components with lighter more expensive kit and there’s another kg or so. The suspension components could be change out for top £££ kit and save a couple of kg’s (dont need a remote preload adjuster when a C spanner will do the job). 

 

Everything else is either necessary  or would need serious modification and theres no alternative off the shelf. To do all the above you could probably spend £8-10K, for what, still wont be as good or light as a 701. If you find the T7 too heavy, you’ve bought the wrong bike. I think I’d rather spend £19k on a KTM 890Rally, it feels 20kg lighter than a T7 (even though its actually heavier), has 30bhp more and is better Offroad. 

 

Jamie on MotoGeo stripped a T7, it was no longer a T7 when he finished, it was a ridiculous naked glamster Type bike. 

 

Less weight cost a lot, thats why oem is generally heavy. 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Alf Meister

[Marc]

Isn’t there a video of  a moto journalist taking a T7 to Roland Sands and stripping the bike for this very purpose? I found it..

 

[ADV Newbie]

53 minutes ago, Alf Meister said:

Jamie on MotoGeo stripped a T7

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by ADV Newbie

[ADV Newbie]

Let's not forget that the MT07 weighs 399 pounds, wet.  Tanks size is 3.1 pounds.   About 44 pounds less than the T700.

 

Moto Geo went from 482 lbs (theirs had a center stand and protection on it ?) down to 422 pounds.  60 pounds lost !   And they didn't put a LiPo battery in it or replace the stock foot pegs with WR pegs.  And I don't think they removed the Cat converter either. Nor Pro Taper bars.

 

I think the starting scale says 474, not 482.   Also, some of the weight lost was the center stand and protection.  The protection will have to be replaced.  

Edited December 13, 2020 by ADV Newbie

[ADV Newbie]

 

[ADV Newbie]

Aluminum/Titanium bolts aren't feasible on everyday use bikes.

 

I'd like to cut off the rear sub frame and bolt on a WR 450 sub frame with plastics inc fender and seat.   I wonder how much  weight that would save ?

 

ABS would save some weight, but it might save my life some day.   Would have to put blinkers back on.  

 

There is probably a bunch of weight to be saved in the nav pod too.   I wonder how much the fuel tank weighs ?  It is probably steel.

 

The removed side panels could be replaced with aluminum or CF easily enough. Mounted with a lot less hardware.

 

An aluminum rear sprocket would last the life of the chain.

Edited December 13, 2020 by ADV Newbie

[ADV Newbie]

The LC4 engine in the 701 (actually a 690...) is known to be problematic.   And it is hardly a cruiser on the highway the way the T700 is.

 

A WR450F weighs about 245 dry.  A WR450F engine weighs about 70 pounds.   The RP2 weighs about 115 pounds.  Say 50 pounds more.   Add another 20 pounds for a nav pod/fairing.   Another 5 pounds for a Seat Concepts cushy seat.   245 + 50 + 20 +5 = 320 pounds dry.  A WR wouldn't need much suspension work.   A T700 needs significant suspension work.

 

Stock T700 weighs 412 pounds dry.  If you could knock 60-75 pounds off of it, get it down to 340-350 dry, it would be an un-beatible bike.  That number sounds ridiculous, but the MT07 weights 399 lbs wet with a 3.1 gallon tank, so it's 380 dry.  

Yamaha MT-07 - Wikipedia

 

What MotoGeo proved to us is that Yamaha has added a ton of weight to the T700 via trim pieces and hardware.   They did the same thing with the older WRs versus the YZs, which is why I suspected the same with the T700.

 

Anyone want to pull off their fuel tank and weigh it, preferably empty ?

 

How long is the T700 swing arm from pivot to the end ?  How wide is it at the swing arm bolt ?

Edited December 13, 2020 by ADV Newbie

[Alf Meister]

5 minutes ago, ADV Newbie said:

The LC4 engine in the 701 (actually a 690...) is known to be problematic.   And it is hardly a cruiser on the highway the way the T700 is.

 

A WR450F weighs about 245 dry.  A WR450F engine weighs about 70 pounds.   The RP2 weighs about 115 pounds.  Say 50 pounds more.   Add another 20 pounds for a nav pod/fairing.   Another 5 pounds for a Seat Concepts cushy seat.   245 + 50 + 20 +5 = 320 pounds dry.

 

Stock T700 weighs 412 pounds dry.  If you could knock 60-75 pounds off of it, get it down to 340-350 dry, it would be an un-beatible  bike.

 

What MotoGeo proved to us is that Yamaha has added a ton of weight to the T700 via trim pieces and hardware.   They did the same thing with the older WRs versus the YZs, which is why I suspected the same with the T700.

 

Anyone want to pull off their fuel tank and weigh it, preferably empty ?

What MotoGeo proved is, the oem centre stand, crash bars, passenger footrest/hangers and silencer are heavy, thats where most of the weight was saved. The bike looked ridiculous after they had finished, who on here would go into a Yamaha dealership and buy a T7 if Yamaha were selling that! Most owners a pretty successful in actually increasing the weight of their bikes. 

[ADV Newbie]

1 minute ago, Alf Meister said:

What MotoGeo proved is, the oem centre stand, crash bars, passenger footrest/hangers and silencer are heavy, thats where most of the weight was saved. The bike looked ridiculous after they had finished, who on here would go into a Yamaha dealership and buy a T7 if Yamaha were selling that! Most owners a pretty successful in actually increasing the weight of their bikes. 

There are tons of ways to build a T700 lighter and still have it look good.   Honda just peeled 4 Kg (nearly 9 pounds) off its new CRF300L thing versus the CRF250L thing.   Probably because it is selling a lot of them.

 

Yamaha is going to sell a ton of the T700s.  Right now there are 3 layers to a T700 - frame, panels and protection.   What Yamaha needs to do is build the T700 like the YZs where there is just a frame and the panels are inexpensive and expendible.   You don't put protection on a YZ except for the radiator.   Protection costs money and adds weight.   Cheaper to ride the bike for a few years and replace the pastics.  Yamaha plastics are very tough and look good even years later.

 

These are ADV bikes.  They are supposed to be ridden on trails, get dropped, get scratched.  Or at least mine would.   Instead of hauling my YZ450FX to the trail on Sunday morning, I'd like to ride a T700 there and use it.  It won't do everything my YZ does, but I don't need it to because I'm rarely riding my YZ to its limit because it's an incredible bike.  There is almost nothing it won't do.   Half the fun of riding a T700 would be to see what wild and crazy things you could do with it.

 

Ten years ago the YZ450F had a conventional cylinder and a carburetor.  Since then it has lost weight, it stops better, it feels tons lighter and it has a fuel injection system you tune with your cell phone !  It's also essentially bulletproof.

 

I'd like to see Yamaha put that level of ingenuity into the next version of the T700.  Soon !

[ADV Newbie]

2 minutes ago, ADV Newbie said:

Most owners a pretty successful in actually increasing the weight of their bikes. 

Yeah, I don't get that.  Kinda like some people buy a Jeep, put on big tires and a lift kit and never take it off road.

 

Here is a list of the top things that make a bike hard to ride in tight conditions.

 

- heavy weight

- high center of gravity

- fast 1st gear

- high seat height

- stiff/poor suspsenion

- poor tires

- jumpy throttle

- engine that stalls

 

Not sure how adding a bunch of heavy accessories to a bike makes it better on the trail.   But I guess a lot of people don't care about that.

 

 

[ADV Newbie]

Answer me this... how does a T700 weight 44 pounds more than a MT07 dry vs dry ?  Where is that weight ?  Same engine, cooling system, induction system, drive train, rider controls... and the cast wheels on the MT07 will weigh more than the spoked wheels on the T700.  And yet the MT07 is 44 pounds lighter.

 

Why can't Yamaha built the T700 naked like the MT07 ?   YZs and WRs are naked. 

Edited December 13, 2020 by ADV Newbie

[Aleksandar13]

I think you can save 8kg with getting rid of the abs unit and switching to one single disc... Add another 8kg with a spec exhaust and tail tidy, no rear pegs 0.5kg... I would say with keeping it looking like a decent bike you could easily save 20kg which is 44 pounds.. Shouldn't be to bad I think.. 

Aleks 

[Marc]

I think the major draw of the T7 is the price point. To that end, the bike needs to built with that goal in mind. Looking back before the T7 became available people were excited that Yamaha were introducing an adv bike with the CP2 engine and under $10K. I would say that the popularity of the T7 proves they met their goals.

[Christoph]

Not to be a smart guy but I took 50lbs off all my bikes.  I lost 50lbs off my own fat ass and everything seems to handle better. 

Just guessing that would help as much as anything for many riders and cost less.

I'll go put myself in detention now and pray for forgiveness.

[Alf Meister]

1 hour ago, ADV Newbie said:

There are tons of ways to build a T700 lighter and still have it look good.   Honda just peeled 4 Kg (nearly 9 pounds) off its new CRF300L thing versus the CRF250L thing.   Probably because it is selling a lot of them.

 

Yamaha is going to sell a ton of the T700s.  Right now there are 3 layers to a T700 - frame, panels and protection.   What Yamaha needs to do is build the T700 like the YZs where there is just a frame and the panels are inexpensive and expendible.   You don't put protection on a YZ except for the radiator.   Protection costs money and adds weight.   Cheaper to ride the bike for a few years and replace the pastics.  Yamaha plastics are very tough and look good even years later.

 

These are ADV bikes.  They are supposed to be ridden on trails, get dropped, get scratched.  Or at least mine would.   Instead of hauling my YZ450FX to the trail on Sunday morning, I'd like to ride a T700 there and use it.  It won't do everything my YZ does, but I don't need it to because I'm rarely riding my YZ to its limit because it's an incredible bike.  There is almost nothing it won't do.   Half the fun of riding a T700 would be to see what wild and crazy things you could do with it.

 

Ten years ago the YZ450F had a conventional cylinder and a carburetor.  Since then it has lost weight, it stops better, it feels tons lighter and it has a fuel injection system you tune with your cell phone !  It's also essentially bulletproof.

 

I'd like to see Yamaha put that level of ingenuity into the next version of the T700.  Soon !

I had a 250 Rally, great little bike for trail riding, but is top heavy, relatively gutless, poor suspension and in the UK it cost £5649, the 300 will probably be closer to £6K, will still be gutless (5% increase on not a lot is not a lot) and still feel top heavy (most of the weight loss is in the frame). 

 

Ask yourselves this, why do all these manufacturers keep making bikes that are “too heavy”? I think they will tell you, price and regulations. The designers will almost certainly want to build a light bike, but the bean counters will argue it cost more money and overrule the designer. 

 

If Yamaha had made a lighter (say 185kg) T7 and the retail price was £12k and Kawasaki was selling a KLR700 that was 204kg for £8.5K, guess most of us would be on the Kawasaki forum. 

 

In the UK you can’t just start removing legally required equipment like abs etc (you could but the law and your insurance provider would have something to say about that). One thing that can make a bike feel lighter is quality suspension, a great quality firm but compliant setup makes the bike react better and feel more responsive. So if you want to make your bike “feel” lighter, maybe spend your money on quality suspension, fit a lithium battery, change your sprockets for alloy (1 or 2 teeth up for more torque), fit a cheap lightweight silencer and don’t fit crash bars, extra lights, rear rack, gps, etc, etc.

 

On free and easy way to lower the bikes centre of gravity, stand up on the pegs, virtually all your body weight transfers to the pegs which is the lowest part of the frame. Maybe we could spend a little money on offroad rider training and practice a lot, when you feel confident in your ability and are a competent Offroad rider, you can ride around the bikes inadequacies. Of course probably most of us will never reach that high level of ability (even if we really wish we did), in that case we just have to accept what we and the bike are capable. You can make a T7 lighter, but to make it substantially lighter is going to cost a lot of money and probably not worth chasing perfection through the wallet. 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Alf Meister

[ADV Newbie]

Most of KTM and Beta's bikes are very light for their displacement.  Except KTM's ADV bikes.

 

Yamaha's MT07 is 44 pounds lighter than the T700 and has all the required safety and emissions stuff.   The reason these ADV bikes are so heavy is because the manufacturers are designing for the luxury cruising crowd rather than the real off road users.   Dirt bikes aren't pigs because the manufacturers know that riders won't buy heavy dirt bikes.   ADV bikes are heavy pigs because manufacturers know that most ADV riders ride to Star Bucks more than an actual trail. 

 

That is why the T700 is based on street bikes (FZ7 and MT07) rather than a dirt bike.  Yamaha didn't put an RP2 in a WR chassis.   They turned an MT07 into a dirt bike and managed to add weight in the process.

 

ADV riders will put up with just about anything for some reason.   Why else would people buy the CRF250L that weighs 300 pounds ? Or the KLRs and KLXs ?   Under powered and over weight, based on a design from the 80s when there were no emissions requirements.  Or the XR650L?  And don't get me started on the DRZs... 

 

Meanwhile Beta builds 350, 390, 430, 450 and 500cc RRSs that all weigh less than 250 pounds !   And KTM builds 350, 450 and 500 FE/EXCs that are light.  So it can be done, economically.  It isn't a cost problem.  More parts and more material costs MORE.  But Kawi, Suzuki and Honda have yet to figure that out.

 

Yamaha doesn't build a 450cc bike with a 6 speed transmission.   They'd sell a ton of dual purpose WRs if they had 6 speeds.

 

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by ADV Newbie

[FredBasset]

1 hour ago, Alf Meister said:

I had a 250 Rally, great little bike for trail riding, but is top heavy, relatively gutless, poor suspension and in the UK it cost £5649, the 300 will probably be closer to £6K, will still be gutless (5% increase on not a lot is not a lot) and still feel top heavy (most of the weight loss is in the frame). 

 

Ask yourselves this, why do all these manufacturers keep making bikes that are “too heavy”? I think they will tell you, price and regulations. The designers will almost certainly want to build a light bike, but the bean counters will argue it cost more money and overrule the designer. 

 

If Yamaha had made a lighter (say 185kg) T7 and the retail price was £12k and Kawasaki was selling a KLR700 that was 204kg for £8.5K, guess most of us would be on the Kawasaki forum. 

 

In the UK you can’t just start removing legally required equipment like abs etc (you could but the law and your insurance provider would have something to say about that). One thing that can make a bike feel lighter is quality suspension, a great quality firm but compliant setup makes the bike react better and feel more responsive. So if you want to make your bike “feel” lighter, maybe spend your money on quality suspension, fit a lithium battery, change your sprockets for alloy (1 or 2 teeth up for more torque), fit a cheap lightweight silencer and don’t fit crash bars, extra lights, rear rack, gps, etc, etc.

 

Maybe we could spend a little money on offroad rider training and practice a lot, when you feel confident in your ability and are a competent Offroad rider, you can ride around the bikes inadequacies. Of course probably most of us will never reach that high level of ability (even if we really wish we did), in that case we just have to accept what we and the bike are capable. You can make a T7 lighter, but to make it substantially lighter is going to cost a lot of money and probably not worth chasing perfection through the wallet. 

Having owned more bikes than I care to mention, I can only but agree with the above. The T7 will be heavier than an MT07, mainly due to increased weight on components that have to withstand off-road riding. The frame, swing arm, suspension and wheels, (the smaller alloy wheels will be lighter) all have to be made to withstand the rigours of quite possibly hard off-road riding and carrying luggage/fuel etc for long distances. The manufacturer has a budget and can’t justify the cost of the more expensive, higher quality components, which ultimately will be stronger and lighter. The manufacturer has be sure that these major components, are going to withstand abuse that owners may put their bike through (to a degree) and the frame (alloy on the MT07 and doesn’t have the lower rails) and swing arm are most likely a lot heavier than the  MT07’s. Its all a compromise, the T7 is a relatively cheap bike, and the components attached to it, are also relatively cheap and heavy. The bean counters overrule the designers and engineers.  

 

You can definitely make any bike lighter, but at what cost, or functionality or looks wise? Motogeo was a perfect example of stripping a bike beyond most sane people would do, to a point where it had lost its identity and in my own opinion, its looks and functionality had been lost. 

 

Me personally, if I was solely concerned in off road riding, I probably wouldn’t buy the T7, but a smaller and lighter bike (701) with a reasonable fuel range or even a KTM 790 Adventure R, as its got the lower center of gravity, bigger fuel tank and its body panels are more robust, so you don’t have to fit crash bars. If the T7 is the bike for you, good luck with your weight saving project, look forward to reading and watching the journey.

Edited December 13, 2020 by FredBasset

[NvNick]

How much money do you have and want to spend ? 

[Oldhorse]

Jump over to Adv Rider and look at build threads for "Thinstrom", and"Crf500l".I

Can't think of the guys name now but he stuffed the 700 into a WR 450 chassis.I

They ended in the 360 to 380# range with way better suspension too.

All these builders have skills way beyond me and I tip my hat to them.

If I want a lighter bike it will be a KTM 500 built for dual sport.

I'd buy one of the above it they were factory offered but that ain't ever happening, sadly.

Best luck with your sawsall!

[Oldhorse]

Found it on Adv rider:

"Help me achieve perfection - WR450 twin Adv conversion".

For those not familiar the Crf500l is a Cb500x motor in a Crf250 chassis.

The Thinstrom is a lightened scramblerized 650 Vstrom.

[Matth]

ADV bikes are made with endurance in mind so generally heavier and ever engineered.

look at a litre road bike and its lighter as doesnt go through the punishment that a dual sport does.

You major weight savings are:

make a frame out of alloy/titanium 

change exhaust completely.

change wheels and hubs.

change battery

alloy fuel tank

single seat

 but keep the bike exactly factory look just don’t bastardise it to make it look like something its not!

 

i reckon that lot would save you 30 Kgs ish which would take it to 177kgs but would cost 12-15 on top

 

good luck :))

Edited December 13, 2020 by Matth

[Canzvt]

Why is the discussion comparing an MT07/WR450 to a T7? Completely different design intents. Compared to the T7:

 

- MT07 frame is substantially less (and probably from thinner section tubing)

- MT07 Swingarm is significantly shorter, and probably thinner due to less abusive use environment

- MT07 Wheels/tires are lighter (see above)

- MT07 Front end is much less substantial, hence lighter (see above)

- WR has an aluminum frame

- WR has a much lighter/shorter swingarm

- Less engine, less compliance equipment and less durability (long haul)

 

When designing anything, you need to understand the use environment. If a T7 EVER broke during 'normal' use Yamaha would be hung by the consumer, for a long time! Hence EVERYTHING is over-engineered with a design safety factor of at least 1.5:1 (my educated opinion) to accommodate non-'normal' use and still not break. This safety factor adds weight. Most aircraft use a safety factor of 1.05:1 based upon estimated extreme environment conditions as weight is operating cost. In an earlier life when designing Ducati WSB components we designed them absolutely as light as possible, until they broke, then added 'weight' in strategic places until the failures became acceptable. Failures of a T7 in the market is not an option! Who cares about weight on a motorbike when Yamaha is known for reliability. I know, some of us do, but Yamaha didn't build this bike for some of us. They built it for a world market to sell hundreds of thousands, which mean reliability beats all.

[JayD]

On 12/13/2020 at 6:31 PM, Canzvt said:

Why is the discussion comparing an MT07/WR450 to a T7? Completely different design intents. Compared to the T7:

 

- MT07 frame is substantially less (and probably from thinner section tubing)

- MT07 Swingarm is significantly shorter, and probably thinner due to less abusive use environment

- MT07 Wheels/tires are lighter (see above)

- MT07 Front end is much less substantial, hence lighter (see above)

- WR has an aluminum frame

- WR has a much lighter/shorter swingarm

- Less engine, less compliance equipment and less durability (long haul)

 

When designing anything, you need to understand the use environment. If a T7 EVER broke during 'normal' use Yamaha would be hung by the consumer, for a long time! Hence EVERYTHING is over-engineered with a design safety factor of at least 1.5:1 (my educated opinion) to accommodate non-'normal' use and still not break. This safety factor adds weight. Most aircraft use a safety factor of 1.05:1 based upon estimated extreme environment conditions as weight is operating cost. In an earlier life when designing Ducati WSB components we designed them absolutely as light as possible, until they broke, then added 'weight' in strategic places until the failures became acceptable. Failures of a T7 in the market is not an option! Who cares about weight on a motorbike when Yamaha is known for reliability. I know, some of us do, but Yamaha didn't build this bike for some of us. They built it for a world market to sell hundreds of thousands, which mean reliability beats all.

Exactly.

 

The T7 is an adventure bike, which means it will see a lot of highway miles too. Try do that on a 140kg specced out WR- doesnt sound like too much fun.

 

That being said, I go by the «light is right» for my T7 anyways. I try to lighten it as much as I can, without chopping anything off. Lighter can, battery, no 10kg crash bars etc. 8-10 kg will still make a difference, even if its from 205 to 195.