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Bike not starting sometimes?


Dakota

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Hey all,

 

My bike has just over 600 miles on it, and twice now it wouldn't start first/second/or sometimes third try.  It seems that i've gotta give it throttle when that happens for it to start? I've not yet adjusted the throttle bodies - still waiting on this to come before I can do it. 

 

Have any of you had this happen? 

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4 hours ago, vicep3 said:

I've determined that it's 100% related to sitting in the sun. I can replicate it every time by riding long or short distances and leaving the bike in direct sunlight in a parking lot. When i come back in an hour, the troubles starting the bike begin. Parking in the shade also solves the problem. Currently have almost 30,000km on the bike and these conditions are the only time it occurs.

 

I was thinking of getting a reflective cover like the MotoGP guys have for it if there is no shade. It's the EVAP cannister as there is no purge valve.

 

 

Thanks for the update. However, that’s not the case with mine — as mentioned before, I’ve experienced the issue with a cool engine/bike a couple of times. Also, that sounds insane and completely unacceptable, parking in the shade is definitely not a solution. You should totally take your bike to the dealer/Yamaha and demand a proper fix (as I will if the problem persists). I suggest making a couple of videos to bring along (and while you’re at it, maybe upload them here). Good luck!

Edited by Dave Mat
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29 minutes ago, Dave Mat said:

 

Thanks for the update. However, that’s not the case with mine — as mentioned before, I’ve experienced the issue with a cool engine/bike a couple of times. Also, that sounds insane and completely unacceptable, parking in the shade is definitely not a solution. You should totally take your bike to the dealer/Yamaha and demand for a proper fix (as I will if the problem persists). I suggest making a couple of videos to bring along (and while you’re at it, maybe upload them here). Good luck!

This happens to many bikes with emission charcoal canisters unless you the bike has a purge valve to shut off the vacuum line to the engine fuel vapor will cause it to run rich when starting causing extended crank. 

 

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2 hours ago, Jesse said:

This happens to many bikes with emission charcoal canisters unless you the bike has a purge valve to shut off the vacuum line to the engine fuel vapor will cause it to run rich when starting causing extended crank. 

 

 

I’ll take your word for it. But: my road bikes (i.e. not ‘Adventure’) could always be parked anywhere. To put it differently: what kind of Adventure are we supposed to have with an engine that doesn’t start under the sun? So again: this is utterly pathetic and I can only hope for your diagnostic to be wrong and for the problem to completely go away before I hit 1.000Km.

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Guess we will find out. Ive been having issues starting mine after sitting in the sun for a while.

20220330_140456.jpg

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On 5/3/2021 at 7:28 AM, Canzvt said:

Get the 2WDW flash. Problem goes away completely. Based upon what I now know, the condition appears to be a lean/lack of fuel condition. Don't know what causes it, but know what fixes it...

From what I got from the mechanics are the dealer, whom got it from Yamaha, it's caused by problems with the canister. Removing the canister is just a few bucks (to buy the caps for throttle body nipples) if you do it yourself. Having the flash done 250 at 2WDW, when it's on special. If you have the money cool. I rather use the 250 bucks to buy more foodies for Rosie (my T7). Or to take a nice ride somewhere.

 

Also, I heard something about an issue with the flash. Don't recall exactly what, but it had to do with low reps and the bike leaning out. Something like that. Have you had any issues after the flash?

Edited by Yasenia
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I like to read between the lines ...

You just can bypass the canister. Leave it in place and connect it again if you go for service or garanty issues . I also red in dutch motorcylemagazine that if a canister is saturated, it can release carginogenic fumes, specially dangerous if your bike is stored in closed garage with limited ventilation. They said maybe replace it with service intervals ...

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@Yaseniagreat stuff, thanks for posting. It is indeed up to Yamaha to fix the mess (and up to the owners to demand for it, pronto). I’ll start spreading the word whenever I bump into yet another sweet review of the (otherwise brilliant) T7 across the internet, and I suggest you all do the same: just mention the issue and link to this thread. Yamaha should speed up the recall.

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On 4/5/2021 at 9:10 AM, Canzvt said:

So I think this might have something to do with cycling the key on/off when doing wiring, or diagnostics or some other requirement - the injectors fire, resulting in a flooded engine. Sitting for awhile with the engine cooling down adds heat to the fuel system which increases the pressure within it, and might result in the injectors leaking a bit resulting in a overall rich condition requiring a bit of throttle application to lean out a bit in order for it to start. I'm guessing at this, but its the only thing I can think of that would cause this. It hasn't happened to me, as here in the great white north it doesn't get that warm...😉

 

Now, what to do about it...When starting your bike after it has been sitting for 20-90min as above, key on, let the fuel pump finish its pressurization procedure, then hit the start button. If it doesn't fire immediately, give it a crack of throttle (1.5-2mm measured at the grip flange against the throttle housing) and it should go. This would indicate a rich starting condition within the combustion chamber. My WR does this ALL THE FREAKING TIME.

As I explain above, mine has been in the shop for over a month. Per Yamaha the mechanics have been over 40 components and tested the hell out of the EFI and other systems? The Yamaha tech and the dealer's mechanics have ruled out everything else, except the charcoal canister. Yamaha is sending a new one. 
 

Like I said in my long commend, the bike senses too much fuel in the air mixture due to the over saturation of the canister and it causes the bike to go lean. Another possible cause (according to Yamaha) is that fumes from the canister build up as it gets hot and travel up the tube to the tank port and causes vapor lock. The idea is that if that is the cause all you have to do is open and close the tank and that should help.

 

 

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On 6/18/2021 at 6:48 PM, Tenererian said:

Those of you having hard start issues while the engine is hot should read this: https://www.tenere700.net/topic/3346-t7-charcoal-canister-removal/

It would be wise for people to remember that if they remove it and the bike is still under warranty, Yamaha will not honor the warranty. That is true whether it is within the one year factory warranty or if they bought Yamaha's or third party's extended warranty. At the dealer I was told that it voids only anything related to emissions control. Everything else is still under warranty. But I don't know if I trust what he said. I would not want to give Yamaha grounds to void the warranty. But that's just me. To each their own! 

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So, this is NOT a problem with my bike, but I've had to hit the button a few times when it was warm + 25C ambient temp, bike at operating temp of 80C, hence I may have suffered from the effects of partially saturated carbon media. In order to try to help the forum readers on the purpose of this canister, and how it can fail, I've gone through the service manual in detail and will try to describe what is happening with some postulations of how to prevent it from happening in the future.

 

The Canister is a vapor recovery vessel that uses activated carbon to arrest the hydrocarbon vapor venting from the overflow vent tube of the gasoline tank which only likely happens when the engine is not running as if it were running the fuel pump would be pulling more fuel volume out than would be vaporized due to evaporation.

The canister is vented to ambient after the activated carbon, and the engine pulls air through the canister constantly via the ambient vent tube to 'purge' the canister of vapor and burn it in the engine.

There is also a valve (called rollover valve) inline of the tank vent tube which flows normally open in the direction of the canister, but must provide some flow resistance (slight vacuum) back into the tank to act as a tank breather. So all air coming into the throttle bodies either must flow through the air filter, or the carbon canister.

 

So for the engine to 'think' it is too rich, hence limiting fuel dwell from the injectors, creating a 'lean' injection condition, the carbon canister must be saturated. It can become saturated in 2 manners. 1 being a tip over with a relatively full fuel tank, whereby the fuel runs down the fuel tank vent tube and floods the canister, and finally leaking out the ambient vent tube onto the ground. The other could be a full fuel tank continuously venting due to heat cycling by increasing the ambient temperature then decreasing the ambient temperature. Like having the bike sit in the sun for a few days. This CAN likely saturate the same carbon in the canister.

 

Then when you run the bike for a bit, the carbon in the canister will release some hydrocarbon vapor, but the engine is cold, needing more fuel. Once the engine is warm, it needs less fuel, hence the lean injection condition results as the canister is releasing more hydrocarbon vapor, as the hydrocarbon release rate will be relatively constant.

 

The only real remedy would be to: replace the canister, or dry out the canister OFF the bike by blowing air through or drawing a vacuum on the canister to remove the hydrocarbons from the carbon. The other solution is to remove the canister from the system.

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I think I have Yamaha disease...

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18 hours ago, BikeBrother said:

I like to read between the lines ...

You just can bypass the canister. Leave it in place and connect it again if you go for service or garanty issues . I also red in dutch motorcylemagazine that if a canister is saturated, it can release carginogenic fumes, specially dangerous if your bike is stored in closed garage with limited ventilation. They said maybe replace it with service intervals ...

Someone suggested that to me. To remove it and put it back in case I have issues with the bike. Here is the problem that I see with that. That means that I must carry it with me and carry the tools needed to put it back. Because if the bike ever breaks down and I have to tow it to a shop, specially while traveling, then I'd need to take the time to reinstall it before it gets to the shop. I am planing to buy the extended 4 year warranty. But for those with bikes that the warranty expired already, hell yeah, remove it if you are having issues. 

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5 hours ago, Yasenia said:

Someone suggested that to me. To remove it and put it back in case I have issues with the bike. Here is the problem that I see with that. That means that I must carry it with me and carry the tools needed to put it back. Because if the bike ever breaks down and I have to tow it to a shop, specially while traveling, then I'd need to take the time to reinstall it before it gets to the shop. I am planing to buy the extended 4 year warranty. But for those with bikes that the warranty expired already, hell yeah, remove it if you are having issues. 

I see your point. But i meant with by-passing, leave the canister in place but make only a new hose.  disconnect hose nr 3 and make a new hose there, along the canister and other hoses down to drain. nr 2 is a valve, i would leave it in place.

image.png.de8584be38b1c7c07e91f2be8f6a1726.png

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8 hours ago, Canzvt said:

The only real remedy would be to: replace the canister, or dry out the canister OFF the bike by blowing air through or drawing a vacuum on the canister to remove the hydrocarbons from the carbon. The other solution is to remove the canister from the system.

 

Great post. But the only acceptable solution really is to have Yamaha fixing their defective product. I’m amazed with how easily everyone is willing to let them get away with it. Ultimately, that’s precisely why they do get away with it. Well, this is NOT OKAY and we’re all entitled to having the manufacturer fixing their mess.

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On 4/3/2022 at 8:06 PM, Yasenia said:

Someone suggested that to me. To remove it and put it back in case I have issues with the bike. Here is the problem that I see with that. That means that I must carry it with me and carry the tools needed to put it back. Because if the bike ever breaks down and I have to tow it to a shop, specially while traveling, then I'd need to take the time to reinstall it before it gets to the shop. I am planing to buy the extended 4 year warranty. But for those with bikes that the warranty expired already, hell yeah, remove it if you are having issues. 

I wish you wouldn't invest in the extended warranty.  It's a waste of money.  There is a thread here on this.  Keep your money to buy a few simple tools and gain some maintenance experience.  And, everyone on this forum will help you trouble shoot any trouble with your bike or home or yard care or heavy equipment repair and the list goes on.  

 

I am happy that your have your bike in the shop for this repair.  Your bike becomes the gunny pig and if you share the findings we'll all learn from it.  Thanks eh!

Edited by Landshark
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On 4/3/2022 at 10:06 PM, Yasenia said:

Someone suggested that to me. To remove it and put it back in case I have issues with the bike. Here is the problem that I see with that. That means that I must carry it with me and carry the tools needed to put it back. Because if the bike ever breaks down and I have to tow it to a shop, specially while traveling, then I'd need to take the time to reinstall it before it gets to the shop. I am planing to buy the extended 4 year warranty. But for those with bikes that the warranty expired already, hell yeah, remove it if you are having issues. 

For them to deny warranty they have to prove that removing the cannister caused the failure and I cant see that causing any issues, besides not starting when hot. I havent had the hot start issue since removing mine.

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Something somewhat related is I owned a Honda Accord. The dealer said don't put more fuel in after the nozzle shuts off because it will saturate the charcoal canister. They said Honda would fix it one time and then with the official warning they will no longer cover it. I loaned my car to my brother and he thought he was being nice and filled up the car and forced fed it. They car kept stopping and wouldn't run. I took the gas cap off for a tank of fuel and it ran fine. 

 

The manual for the T700 says to only fill to the bottom of the neck that goes into the gas tank. I wonder if guys are filling right to the top and causing a similar problem.

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7 hours ago, JRS700 said:

Something somewhat related is I owned a Honda Accord. The dealer said don't put more fuel in after the nozzle shuts off because it will saturate the charcoal canister. They said Honda would fix it one time and then with the official warning they will no longer cover it. I loaned my car to my brother and he thought he was being nice and filled up the car and forced fed it. They car kept stopping and wouldn't run. I took the gas cap off for a tank of fuel and it ran fine. 

 

The manual for the T700 says to only fill to the bottom of the neck that goes into the gas tank. I wonder if guys are filling right to the top and causing a similar problem.

That would be an extra £5 over here. 
 

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7 hours ago, JRS700 said:

I wonder if guys are filling right to the top and causing a similar problem.

I fill it up as much as possible and didn't have any problems... yet.

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On 4/3/2022 at 7:55 PM, Yasenia said:

It would be wise for people to remember that if they remove it and the bike is still under warranty, Yamaha will not honor the warranty. That is true whether it is within the one year factory warranty or if they bought Yamaha's or third party's extended warranty. At the dealer I was told that it voids only anything related to emissions control. Everything else is still under warranty. But I don't know if I trust what he said. I would not want to give Yamaha grounds to void the warranty. But that's just me. To each their own! 

Just wanted to echo this.  I've dealt with Yamaha warranty claims a few times, and this has been my experience (and has been reinforced by the Yamaha certified dealerships I've dealt with):

 

  • They will only consider related modifications for voiding warranties.  However, it's important to understand they and you may disagree with "related" and it'll be up to them.
  • They are VERY willing to not honor warranties if they can.
  • Random dealers are not the ones who make the decision.  They can impact it based on what they tell/show Yamaha, but it's up to Yamaha to make the decision.  As such, as per the bolded section, I think that's very wise.  Not that the dealer would necessarily deliberately lie to you, but that he could simply be wrong and you'd be left holding the bag.

 

Honestly, I've bought the Yamaha extended warranty in the past, and I regret it.  The reality is the warranty is expensive, and the bikes are very reliable - industry leading.  If it fails after the first year, it's almost certainly failing for a reason they can find a justification to not honor the warranty for.  My dealer even said with engine problems, unless you can provide proof that you've been using Yamalube, or a brand they feel is superior ie Motul, they'll dismiss warranty claims out of hand.  

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Has anyone mentioned checking the battery?

Same thing happened with my XSR 900, and it was just the battery that was dying. (strange because I only had 10k kms on it)

Replaced it and all good

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3 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

This has been a hard thread to read. Many posters have provided very good explanations for the starting issues but there are a lot of repeated questions, so here is a summary of why you might have a starting issue.

 

1. Fuel in the charcoal canister - well explained by Yasenia and Canzvt. To avoid the problem dont overfill your tank, or possibly remove the charcoal canister altogether (check comments in this thread on warranty). This may also happen if you drop your bike. Another option worth considering is to only "over fill" your tank when you are about to ride so it is not left standing with a full tank or in warm weather.

2. Trying to start too soon - you have to let the fuel pump prime first before starting.

3. Ignition key is not in the fully on position - first raised by TexasT700 I think, that if not fully seated to the on detent it can crank the engine but not start.

4. Tip over sensor needs to be reset - if you drop your bike, the bike will subsequently crank but not start. You have to turn off the key and turn back on again (and wait for the fuel pump to prime, see item 2...) to restart.

5. On similar bikes (I too have an MT-09 and this has been raised many times for those bikes) where a battery is on its way out, or the battery terminals are loose, and there is not quite enough punch to crank the engine and power the ignition.

 

 

Great summary.  I've  not had the problem but am well versed with this issue because... I'm a member of this knowledge filled forum.  I'll vote your answer up.  

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In 16,000 miles I've come to the conclusion that mine does it only when I try running regular fuel. Takes a couple of tanks to start acting up.

I go back to midgrade and in a couple of tanks all is fine. There was no issue when cold. Only when restarting warm engine.

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