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Lithium Ion Battery


prwatts

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I had a Lithium battery in my 17 KTM 500exc, it failed 30kms on a single woods trail, couldn't even accept a boost to get started, lucky my pal had a capacitor with him and finally kicked enough to get the power to the ecu and finally fired up, tossed the Lithium and it's expensive charger and installed a $30 3 lb gel cell with a capacitor and never looked back. Once bitten twice shy, IMO not worth the additional cost, issues, weight saving.

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On 6/4/2020 at 3:09 AM, Adrenolin said:

Stop 🛑 Check out the Anti-Gravity ReStart batteries! The ATZ-10 is what fit the MT07 so I’ve ordered one of these for my T7 when it arrives. These batteries have an incorporated Jump Start built into the battery which is fantastic for a bike with no kick start. These also have a built in BMS (Battery Management System) that monitors the battery 24/7 against over charging, discharging, temperature etc. If it sees the battery voltage dropping when not in use it’ll put the battery into a sleep mode to protect itself. It’ll even self balance the lithium cells when in use so no typical lithium battery maintenance. No charges are required. It’ll sit in the bike or on a shelf for a year without discharging. If it drains and you need to wake it up you simply press the ReStart button on the top. 

What exactly is this "typical lithium battery maintenance" that you mention?

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41 minutes ago, BMRT7 said:

What exactly is this "typical lithium battery maintenance" that you mention?

Cell balancing .. every individual cell is slightly different and will charge/discharge at different rates. Impedance, discharge/charge rates, temperature, environment, etc all cause the cells to work slightly differently from each other thus they require balancing to keep them in harmony and extend battery life. Cell imbalance can quickly reduce lithium battery life in half in some cases... a costly problem. Most companies choose to require their battery be hooked up to an external lithium charger that can maintain and balance the cells. Few will actually do this internally due to costs.

 

Anti-Gravity Lithium batteries are self balancing while in use and don’t require an external charger so they’ll typically last longer. 
 

With their built in Jump Start they are one of the best Lithium battery choices on the market. I run them in 4 of our bikes. I know guys in Canada who’ve been using these for several years in their snowmobiles in the cold which can often go months without use. No external balancing or chargers are used. The cold will occasionally drain the battery slightly but the built in protections simply put the batteries into sleep mode. They hit the ReStart button and fire them up. 

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19 minutes ago, Adrenolin said:

Cell imbalance can quickly reduce lithium battery life in half in some cases

How quickly? What cases? 

 

20 minutes ago, Adrenolin said:

Most companies

What companies?

 

23 minutes ago, Adrenolin said:

With their built in Jump Start they are one of the best Lithium battery choices on the market. I run them in 4 of our bikes. I know guys in Canada who’ve been using these for several years in their snowmobiles in the cold which can often go months without use.

The above is anecdotal at best. This is from their own website:

image.thumb.png.c63f7b18a50d891c55dc8026ee51a911.png

 

Any decent lithium battery pack sold today will have some sort of balancing chip and will either actively (higher voltage cells charging lower voltage cells) or passively (using a resistor that kicks on when a cell is above a certain threshold thereby lowering the charge current and allowing other cells to catch up) balance its cells. This is the most basic level of control for a lithium battery.

 

Generally speaking, two main problems with having cells out of balance are:

1: When the cell with the lowest voltage hits its discharge cutoff it will shut down the entire battery pack

2: Inversely, the cell with the highest voltage can interrupt the charging process when it reaches the upper limit cutoff voltage giving you a battery that may never be fully charged.

 

Cell degradation will still occur regardless of whether they're balanced or not.

 

Having a full blown BMS system baked in would be a plus, sure. The problem is, though, that a lot of manufacturers of liion and lifepo batteries call more basic systems by that name when they actually aren't. There are basically three levels of control for a "smart" battery.

1. Balancing

2. Circuit protection - this is what prevents over and under charging.

3. Full blown BMS that monitors both of the above along with state of charge and overall battery health - over the life of the battery. I have yet to see a powersports battery that actually offers this. Antigravity offers the first two.

 

There is a lot of carryover from other applications and industries that, unfortunately, become marketing buzzwords and nothing more.

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1. Research it yourself.

2. Read 1

3. Not at all.. the ReStart does 2 things. If the BMS puts the battery into sleep mode pressing the button will wake it up. In sleep mode it nearly always still has enough power to start the bike. If it doesn’t then it’ll use the jump start feature.. which other lithium batteries don’t have. 
 

If you don’t use the battery for awhile they will naturally slowly discharge. In this case the BMS will place the battery in a sleep mode which will actually slowdown the discharge as well. These batteries can sit on a shelf for a year and put back into service simply by pressing the ReStart button. Yes, if the voltage drops way down a Lithium charger/maintainer should be used to properly recharge it. I’ve personally left one of my bikes sit for 2 months (Jan/Feb) over the winter in an unheated detached garage, turned the key, hit the start button and it fired up fine without having to hit the restart button. 
 

Anti-Gravity offers all 3.. Balancing, Circuit Protection and a complete BMS.. I mean it’s touted throughout their website. 

Im not here to argue. Not another battery on the market besides AG ReStarts right now offer all 3 of those features Plus an internal Jump Start. That’s simply fact.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Adrenolin said:

1. Research it yourself.

2. Read 1

3. Not at all.. the ReStart does 2 things. If the BMS puts the battery into sleep mode pressing the button will wake it up. In sleep mode it nearly always still has enough power to start the bike. If it doesn’t then it’ll use the jump start feature.. which other lithium batteries don’t have. 
 

If you don’t use the battery for awhile they will naturally slowly discharge. In this case the BMS will place the battery in a sleep mode which will actually slowdown the discharge as well. These batteries can sit on a shelf for a year and put back into service simply by pressing the ReStart button. Yes, if the voltage drops way down a Lithium charger/maintainer should be used to properly recharge it. I’ve personally left one of my bikes sit for 2 months (Jan/Feb) over the winter in an unheated detached garage, turned the key, hit the start button and it fired up fine without having to hit the restart button. 
 

Anti-Gravity offers all 3.. Balancing, Circuit Protection and a complete BMS.. I mean it’s touted throughout their website. 

Im not here to argue. Not another battery on the market besides AG ReStarts right now offer all 3 of those features Plus an internal Jump Start. That’s simply fact.

 

 

1. Am battery engineer for a major American manufacturer.  Have researched plenty. 
2. Your turn to read 1. Balancing and circuit protection are entirely different things. 

3. You’ve been “sold” as they say, Robert. 

Restart isn’t some breakthrough technology. Most all modern lithium based batteries have over discharge protection. All they’re doing is changing the cutoff. Did you know you can brick a Tesla if its battery is discharged too far? Know what they have built in? Over discharge protection. I promise your $80 battery isn’t as smart as the full BMS system in a Tesla. Or an electric forklift for that matter.  That’s a fact. They just don’t name it “sleep mode” they call it “hey plug in your car or you can’t drive” is there more charge actually left!? Yes! There is. You just can’t access it. 
 

2 hours ago, Adrenolin said:

 

Anti-Gravity offers all 3.. Balancing, Circuit Protection and a complete BMS.. I mean it’s touted throughout their website. 

They don’t, though. 
 

Fine if you don’t want to have a debate but I’d challenge you to use your “BMS” to tell me the overall health of your battery and how many cycles it’s been through. 
 

Spoiler alert: you can’t.

 

Sure it’s touted throughout their website. Who are we gonna call, the battery police? It’s not standardized. But it’s on the internet! It must be true! 

 

If you can offer something tangible that isn’t offered by the first two items (other than pure marketing material) then sure, we can discuss further. Otherwise I’m out. 
 

 

EDIT:

Wanted to point out something additional you mentioned about self discharge. More of a concern with the standard lead acid batteries folks are used to. With lead acid that discharge curve is 4-5% every month. With lithium they’re much more “shelf-stable” if you will and that curve is roughly 10-13% over the course of 5 years. If you don’t ride your bike for 5 years we have a bigger debate on our hands. 

Edited by BMRT7
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  • 5 months later...

 Just installed a shido from @Rugged Roads great service as usual. 

Its a no brainer if you want to shead weight. I bought a lithium charger aswell.  First ride all good. Will give 1 year review i guess 

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I have a Skyrich lithium battery for about a year on my Tiger 800. No problems so far. Although I could not drive as much as usual because of the lockdowns, the bike starts perfectly each time.

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On 7/22/2020 at 2:24 PM, Adrenolin said:

The ATZ-10 fits the Tenere 700. 
The ATZ-7 fits the WR250R. 
 

I now have 2 ATZ-7 batteries in my WRRs and had bought the ATZ-10 for the T7 but just returned it. I’ll be carrying a Warn XT17 power winch which the battery’s BMS sees as Pulling to many AMPs and shuts down to protect itself unfortunately. I’d definitely have kept it aside from the winch as it drops about 6Lbs off the bike. 

Can any lithium batteries be used with the xt17? I have one too and wonder if I need to keep the oem battery.

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2 hours ago, jdk2man said:

Can any lithium batteries be used with the xt17? I have one too and wonder if I need to keep the oem battery.

Unfortunately no you cant use a lithium battery with the Warn XT17.. or any other winch. I contacted both Anti-Gravity and Warn about this with info about the respective battery/winch combo and was told it wouldn't work.

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16 hours ago, Hogan said:

 

There are no stupid questions, just stupid Australians who obviously couldn't answer your question 😉

 

Technically speaking lithium-ion has different charging requirements. Lead-Acid is constant voltage, Li-Ion is a two stage process of constant current, and then constant voltage when the cell reaches the saturation zone.

 

Any battery sold/designed to go into a car or motorcycle will have the required circuitry built in  There is no need for a vehicle to be 'designed for lithium  batteries'

 

Though in my experience Li-On batteries for cars/bikes fail often because of cheap & nasty components/build quality/poor engineering. Even when you shell out for the 'big name' brands because they are are made of the same garbage li-on cells & components the Shenzhen back-alley specialists sell. 

 

Personally I would stick to the standard lead-acid batteries. Unless you are the princess and the pea - or the muppet and the motorcycle that can some how feel a 2kg weight difference on a 200kg bike...

 

 

 No need for name calling , 
 I work hard, do overtime and have some savings. mabey I like buying bits for my bike.  And reading other reviews on lithium battery’s they are superior in every way.  Except jump starting a vehicle 
 2.3kg batt 2.5kg slip on exhaust all starts adding up . 

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15 hours ago, David Adams said:

 No need for name calling , 
 I work hard, do overtime and have some savings. mabey I like buying bits for my bike.  And reading other reviews on lithium battery’s they are superior in every way.  Except jump starting a vehicle 
 2.3kg batt 2.5kg slip on exhaust all starts adding up . 

Hi David, I totally agree with you and would buy one in a heartbeat, BUT I am still bothered by the charging.  I cannot get a definitive statement that, for example, one must get a battery with a BMS (Battery Management System) built in, then it controls its own state of charge, or if you use a simple LiPo battery you have to separately charge it with an external special Lithium Charger every so often ( which I would not want).  I have also seen that one can get a separate BMS Unit that you interpose between the Lead Acid Battery input and the LiPo Battery to do this - fine for a car where there is always a spot under the bonnet you can put this gizmo, but more awkward on a bike.  So I am still wavering and very interested to get sound advice.

 

BTW another useful weight saving if you always ride solo is the pillion footpegs, BUT they are a useful "crash bar" if you go down on one side.  Take them off and the side of the bike looks quite vulnerable  😞

 

Kind regards

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1 hour ago, prwatts said:

Hi David, I totally agree with you and would buy one in a heartbeat, BUT I am still bothered by the charging.  I cannot get a definitive statement that, for example, one must get a battery with a BMS (Battery Management System) built in, then it controls its own state of charge, or if you use a simple LiPo battery you have to separately charge it with an external special Lithium Charger every so often ( which I would not want).  I have also seen that one can get a separate BMS Unit that you interpose between the Lead Acid Battery input and the LiPo Battery to do this - fine for a car where there is always a spot under the bonnet you can put this gizmo, but more awkward on a bike.  So I am still wavering and very interested to get sound advice.

 

BTW another useful weight saving if you always ride solo is the pillion footpegs, BUT they are a useful "crash bar" if you go down on one side.  Take them off and the side of the bike looks quite vulnerable  😞

 

Kind regards

 I’ve taken the pillion pegs off  already. I use blizzard saddle bags to take some impact. 
 On the shido battery from rugged roads it has a BMS system built in according to the manual.  Mabey wait a year until more reviews come out? I will get back to you on my one. Apparently they have very little discharge when not in use so no need to keep charging 

 I must stres I’m not at all a expert on batteries

just giving it a go 

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@Hogan (off topic on) Never heared about purple and yellow carrots? 😄 (off topic off)

Edited by didier
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  • 3 months later...

I just put an Antigravity ReStart Lithium on my T7 as well. Soooo much lighter and a really strong battery. 

 

Posted a quick video about it if anyone is interested...

 

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MotoSouth

www.youtube.com/c/motosouth

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Jenny Craig will get you weight savings and improve your health.

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Having woken up in Greek mountains on the TET this morning with -1degree celsius, gopro showed 1 bar, dji drone refused to work saying it has a critically low battery, both have been fully charged the night before, i would hesitate to put a li-ion battery into the bike.

 

Additionally, i owned an ajp pr7 before that comes with li-ion battery stock and the damn thing would not start at temps below 10 degrees C...

Edited by Spuzvica
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i bought a high-zooty, super-lightweight Shorai battery for "another" bike a while back.  It required a special Shorai charger that plugged in and did all the management, blah blah blah - sold it all with the bike

Whenever  I get to thinking I need to "save weight" on the T7?  I look down at my stomach,  and reduce portion sizes, drink more water, and ride the bicycle a bit farther every morning.

I know where I can scrape 7-10 lbs, easily, and cheaply - without ever touching a socket or screwdriver.

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3 hours ago, Spuzvica said:

Having woken up in Greek mountains on the TET this morning with -1degree celsius, gopro showed 1 bar, dji drone refused to work saying it has a critically low battery, both have been fully charged the night before, i would hesitate to put a li-ion battery into the bike.

 

Additionally, i owned an ajp pr7 before that comes with li-ion battery stock and the damn thing would not start at temps below 10 degrees C...


I’m currently riding the TET in Greece as well, in Thessaloniki now as we are doing some work to the suspension. 
want to meet for a ride and/or a beer? 
(My plans are to do TET Bulgaria and Romania in the next weeks) 

sorry I know it’s off topic 🤪 

 

however the weight savings always seem appealing but I’m not ready for the downsides of a lithium battery since the standard one still does it’s job perfectly and from the looks of it will keep on doing so. 

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1 hour ago, HugoB said:


I’m currently riding the TET in Greece as well, in Thessaloniki now as we are doing some work to the suspension. 
want to meet for a ride and/or a beer? 
(My plans are to do TET Bulgaria and Romania in the next weeks) 

sorry I know it’s off topic 🤪 

 

however the weight savings always seem appealing but I’m not ready for the downsides of a lithium battery since the standard one still does it’s job perfectly and from the looks of it will keep on doing so. 

Sorry but we are quite far south of Ioanina already so not that close. Had to turn around at 2000m pass due to snow...

Good luck!

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  • 2 months later...
On 7/23/2020 at 5:54 AM, Adrenolin said:

The ATZ-10 fits the Tenere 700. 
The ATZ-7 fits the WR250R. 
 

I now have 2 ATZ-7 batteries in my WRRs and had bought the ATZ-10 for the T7 but just returned it. I’ll be carrying a Warn XT17 power winch which the battery’s BMS sees as Pulling to many AMPs and shuts down to protect itself unfortunately. I’d definitely have kept it aside from the winch as it drops about 6Lbs off the bike. 

Okay so if I didn't have a winch this would be a great battery?  I love the dual/double terminals - very handy.

YouTube - RIDER GUIDER - check out my T7 playlist and say hello 😀 

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On 6/2/2021 at 8:27 AM, MotoSouth said:

I just put an Antigravity ReStart Lithium on my T7 as well. Soooo much lighter and a really strong battery. 

 

Posted a quick video about it if anyone is interested...

 

How is this going mate?  

YouTube - RIDER GUIDER - check out my T7 playlist and say hello 😀 

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Hello I put a shoria lipo battery in my 2021 T7. It been in there for 8 months.  Not a signal issue. On Friday a buddy brought me his XR650L that had not run in 7 years. First I pulled and cleaned the carb. The I just thought I would see if it would start. The Shoria battery had not been a charger in 7 years. The bike fired right up after 7 years of sitting.  I am blown away. 

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Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,for there you have been, and there you will long to return!

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