OutEx failure analysis, 3M alternative details and installation guide

[FAR&FURTHER]

Hello everyone, I had a failure on my OutEx installation after about 20 000km on it and I really want to explain what and why it happened.

 

I've used 3M sealing tape alternative (which is mentioned many times) this time to see how it compares with OutEx.

 

Also when I applied 3M tape, why not to do the guide to install these types of tubeless conversions.

 

 

[TimeMachine]

9 hours ago, FAR&FURTHER said:

Hello everyone, I had a failure on my OutEx installation after about 20 000km on it and I really want to explain what and why it happened.

 

I've used 3M sealing tape alternative (which is mentioned many times) this time to see how it compares with OutEx.

 

Also when I applied 3M tape, why not to do the guide to install these types of tubeless conversions.

 

 

Thank you for your excellent research and video on this topic. As you might know I have the Outex kit in my T7 and am very happy with it. Mine has been assembled with the protective film on the spokes and I do not run a tube. I do use the Tubliss kit which has a tube but that doesn't rub the tire so won't incur the friction that seems to be the cause of trouble, and has worked flawlessly for the last five years over two different bikes.
I agree that the use of sealant around the spokes is counter-productive. I also would not trust the 3M solution for fear of damage during assembly. That needs a solution to protect the film.

 

[Canzvt]

8 hours ago, TimeMachine said:

Thank you for your excellent research and video on this topic. As you might know I have the Outex kit in my T7 and am very happy with it. Mine has been assembled with the protective film on the spokes and I do not run a tube. I do use the Tubliss kit which has a tube but that doesn't rub the tire so won't incur the friction that seems to be the cause of trouble, and has worked flawlessly for the last five years over two different bikes.
I agree that the use of sealant around the spokes is counter-productive. I also would not trust the 3M solution for fear of damage during assembly. That needs a solution to protect the film.

 

I'm VERY interested in the TUBLISS System for the front tire. I run an Outex Sealed system front and rear, but would like to have the added protection of the Tubliss system to prevent low pressure unseating of the bead. Can you provide a bit more history and details of your use of the Tubliss system please? They are NOT recommended for road use, but obviously you are doing it.

[TimeMachine]

19 hours ago, Canzvt said:

I'm VERY interested in the TUBLISS System for the front tire. I run an Outex Sealed system front and rear, but would like to have the added protection of the Tubliss system to prevent low pressure unseating of the bead. Can you provide a bit more history and details of your use of the Tubliss system please? They are NOT recommended for road use, but obviously you are doing it.

No problem. I first used the Tubliss system about 2017 on a Husky TR650 with Excel rims in 1.85x21 and 2.5x18 sizes. These were exactly the same size and model of rims I am now using on the T7. The idea was to improve the sand capabilities of the bike and I have a video I'll link to that was a simple demonstration of how well it worked using zero psi in the rear.

 

 

The Tubliss system, in addition to allowing a tubeless repair, locks the bead to the rim allowing ridiculously low pressures without the tire slipping or demounting from the bead. But another benefit is that it helps to seal the tire to the rim, a complimentary feature to the Outex system that seals the rim at the spokes. This is important for damaged beads or poor quality tires that are not designed to be tubeless. One thing the Tubliss system doesn't have is a good tape system to seal the rim, so the two systems work better together.

 

When I first started using this system it was very slowly leaking (even using both systems) and I didn't solve that till by brother mentioned something he heard about using protectant inside the tire to help maintain a seal. I am not sure if protectant is required or simply a lot of moisture, but it helps to be generous with the fluids!

 

 

Since doing that and ensuring the valve stems are tightened correctly, I have had absolutely no issues for years until my last tire change about 6 weeks ago. After changing my rear tire and being a bit rough with it, and not using much protectant) it started losing air and I thought I had damaged the bead (which I probably did). So I let it down again and sprayed a fair amount of protectant around each bead (even pouring some in) and pressured it up to 40 psi overnight. From that point on it stopped leaking. It did worry me at the time that I might have pinched the Tubliss inner tube so back ordered some spare tubes, but that was not the problem and suspect a wobbly bead needed time and pressure to seal.

 

This brings me to the subject of fitting the Tubliss system. It requires a different approach but is actually just as easy as a normal fitment.The idea is to put the whole rim inside the tire and then fit the tire's bead to the rim from the outside on both sides. When fitting you might think you have pinched a tube because it will start leaking around the stem until the air caught between the Tubliss system and the rim gets a chance to escape. Then it will hold air pressure in the tube and separately in the tire. Just dont panic.

 

 

I have used the Motoz Desert HT 140/80 (tubed type) and the Shinko 216MX 140/80 (tubeless) on the rear, and similar model tires for the front in 90/90 and 90/100. The Motoz is much stiffer and harder to fit but not a big issue, except for the bead not sealing as already mentioned due to my rough handling.

 

At normal tire pressures the Tubliss system does not touch the tire so does not generate heat and has been perfectly fine for road use with no issues whatsoever. You will notice though that it needs a few weights to counter-balance the large valve stem arrangement.

 

Hope that helps. Apologies to Pavel for stealing his thread. Maybe this could be moved to a separate thread. 

 

 

[Canzvt]

Thanks a bunch! I'll PM you with a couple of additional questions so not to further hi-jack this thread. Thanks again.

[FAR&FURTHER]

@TimeMachine Don't be sorry, this is actually really really good information. I always wondered about the tublis and wanted to give it a shot as well. The fact it works as rim lock and presses the beads against the rim is really beneficial.

 

I can see you have the MT (anti-debeading) rim in the front, which I'm now thinking about... Do you still get the leaks through the bead with poor tire or slightly dented rim?

 

Also, the OutEx itself sells the sealant for the slow leaks. When I wrote them about the video they sent me a link:

Air Leak Prevention Agent for OUTEX TUBELESS KIT

---

This item is used when air is leaking little by little after installing OUTEX tubeless kit on the rim. Insert the valve to the attached tube. Inject Air leak prevention agent on the tire. Check air pressure sideways so that the Air leak...

 

I suspect it is quite similar to many other products on the market.

 

Pavel

[TimeMachine]

On 7/7/2021 at 1:17 AM, FAR&FURTHER said:

@TimeMachine Don't be sorry, this is actually really really good information. I always wondered about the tublis and wanted to give it a shot as well. The fact it works as rim lock and presses the beads against the rim is really beneficial.

 

I can see you have the MT (anti-debeading) rim in the front, which I'm now thinking about... Do you still get the leaks through the bead with poor tire or slightly dented rim?

 

Also, the OutEx itself sells the sealant for the slow leaks. When I wrote them about the video they sent me a link:

Air Leak Prevention Agent for OUTEX TUBELESS KIT

---

This item is used when air is leaking little by little after installing OUTEX tubeless kit on the rim. Insert the valve to the attached tube. Inject Air leak prevention agent on the tire. Check air pressure sideways so that the Air leak...

 

I suspect it is quite similar to many other products on the market.

 

Pavel

Actually my front rim is the WM rim type without the bead holder, and I've had no trouble with the tire coming off the rim down to 15psi. I haven't tried it any lower but will next time I am in the sand. My brother says his 450 handles sand way better with very low pressures on the front, like 8psi, so I'll give 10psi a go on the T7 and see how that goes.

 

I have never dented an Excel rim so wouldn't know if it would still hold pressure. My guess is it would take a big dent to make it lose air, and even if it did I could still ride it home!

[FAR&FURTHER]

Hm... the picture with the red tubliss shows the safety lips on the Excel rim, that's why I was asking. I'm also running OEM WT rim and I keep the pressures to around 15-19 as you do and never had a problem with tire slipping off the bead.

 

For my riding that pressure front & rear is soft enough, also protects the rims from the rocks and so on.

I've dented OEM rim few times, small "bend outs" or how to describe. Causes the leak through the bead, I didn't have a massive dent which would cause the rim to cave in, in that case obviously you'd loose all air but I guess there would be more problems on your hands at that point

[TimeMachine]

1 hour ago, FAR&FURTHER said:

Hm... the picture with the red tubliss shows the safety lips on the Excel rim, that's why I was asking. I'm also running OEM WT rim and I keep the pressures to around 15-19 as you do and never had a problem with tire slipping off the bead.

 

For my riding that pressure front & rear is soft enough, also protects the rims from the rocks and so on.

I've dented OEM rim few times, small "bend outs" or how to describe. Causes the leak through the bead, I didn't have a massive dent which would cause the rim to cave in, in that case obviously you'd loose all air but I guess there would be more problems on your hands at that point

That picture is of my rear wheel. It's a 2.5x18 rim to fit the Tubliss system and get the correct profile shape using 140 tires.

 

15 psi is about as low as I have gone so far on the front, but have often used lower pressures on the rear. In the video below I set it to 11 and if I had trouble getting up the dune then would have let it down to near zero and tried again. I'll do some more sand testing over the next few months when I can get  back out there.

 

 

[one wheel drive]

On 7/4/2021 at 2:48 PM, FAR&FURTHER said:

Hello everyone, I had a failure on my OutEx installation after about 20 000km on it and I really want to explain what and why it happened.

 

I've used 3M sealing tape alternative (which is mentioned many times) this time to see how it compares with OutEx.

 

Also when I applied 3M tape, why not to do the guide to install these types of tubeless conversions.

 

 

 

 

Good information, nicely done video.

 

This is the type of failure that makes me reluctant to go tubeless.  Other than the fact the T7 rim was not designed for tubeless.

 

The tubeless plug will not fix every kind of puncture. Also they are meant to be temporary, so you will have to remove the tire anyway to repair it from the inside, eventually.

 

I will be carrying tubes anyway, even with a tubeless conversion, in case the tire damage is too much for the plug type repair. Or in case of rim damage.

 

But with the potential for a failure of the tape and pucky to leak out on a long ride, its hard to see why that system is worth the bother.

 

Maybe if I only rode pavement and was always in range of rescue by trailer. But that isn't how we ride.

 

 

: