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What gear is best - torque/speed


MGG
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I am trying to figure out what gear I should be aiming for while riding and I got in this crazy overthinking situation where I am questioning the way I ride.

I am sharing here for the benefits of all, and hopefully you find this useful.

 

I know the T7 motor is great in any gear, but I realized that I am loving more the low end behaviour and end up in a gear that is too tall when I am in a tight spot.

I always start in 2nd, shift to 3rd as soon as it's moving, and end up in 4th most of the time.

I would love that 6th gear to be much much longer, like an overdrive, even it it means it will not have power. I am in 6th gear mostly on highways.

 

I had a look at the HP-Torque graphs from Cycle World (https://www.cycleworld.com/story/bikes/how-much-power-does-the-2021-yamaha-tenere-700-make/)

image.jpeg.42da5bde7a5175c4d859eb057b2b5f0d.jpeg

This is one of the few usable graphs out there that show the torque down low, before the 4k RPM.

HP = Torque * RPM / 5252  This horsepower formula confirms that Torque is the mother of all 🙂 and that the HP numbers are marketing to sell more bikes since you get higher numbers at the far end of the RPM spectrum.

 

Since I am trying to add some details to that graph, I had to manually measure the results they got so I am really approximating their approximation. I was able to get a table out of this graph and managed to get some usable data,  like this:

image.png.494274bc82c4048954719d6b99dbe4b1.png 

Now to be honest, I do not see a dip in power in the 2750RPM range so I am not sure how accurate the graph are, or if there are better more accurate numbers out there for a stock T7.

 

Then I mixed in the gears and drive ratios ... info came from (https://www.gearingcommander.com/)

 

image.png.5455878b87bbe782864eb9376d902c8a.png

 

When you add the rear wheel size, you are now able to calculate speed in each gear based on RPM.  This gives you theoretical speed in each gear.

image.png.f0356af08a088d7e1a3a12ce9077a600.png

 

And then you mix this with the torque data you get:

image.png.fd2649af75fd1255dd73ae91fb4f95c7.png

 

Then reality strikes. (legal speed limit in Canada is 100km/h) and it makes some of the gears redundant.

If you look at the graph you realize that you get similar power no matter the gear you are in, and it makes sense seeing how nice the CP2 motor is. 

image.png.712218046ce3cf246b8ce9338fad9dd5.png

Looking at the graph, I realize that maybe the low end dip is really there and it's what makes me shift early. 

So now I have a small justification to force myself to keep a gear longer. 

Here is how I change gears most of the time. 

  

 

Thank you for listening to my ramble, at least now I have something to go back to if I forget and maybe I can find some tips or confirmations in the process to make me a better rider.

Peace 🙂 

 

Edited by MGG
added note on torque curve images ... gear ratios not factored in
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That’s a lot of data to consider. Frankly I always start in first gear, as I’m usually pack at lease 260lbs of self and junk with me, and it’s easier on the machine. If I’m in a hurry to get out of the starting block, I usually grab 2nd gear around 4k and open the throttle up. Generally gets to. 60mph pretty quickly.

 

Based on your charts and my backside I’d say never fall below 2250-2500 rpm, and you should be able to open the throttle right up and get immediate results. Just my $0.02

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3 hours ago, MGG said:

 

 

(legal speed limit in Canada is 100km/h)

 


It is 110km/h in New Brunswick. I think other provinces also have the 110km/h limit.
 

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It’s a mental thing. Sound and vibes. I never feel the need to speed in my wagon, 250k miles diesel landy. My ears wouldn’t take it. That’s where governments are wrong. To cut speeding,  just get rid of NVH departments in the manufacturers. 😉
the t7 does sound and feel like she’s trying too hard at motorway speeds, (even though she isn’t)because of being a twin, hence the sprocket swap people are doing. Get some earplugs and wring it like she wants. 😁. But not in front of the Mounties. 🍺

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P. S. Our lot are stealthily introducing 50mph limits everywhere on our motorways, after all these years feeling sorry for the 55mph over the water. And 20 mph in towns from next year ( I agree in some cases for safety, just not for emissions, I use more fuel at 20 than 30). Don’t know what the excuses will be when everyone’s electric🤔

maybe I should put a blue light on the bike. 

 

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4 hours ago, MGG said:

I am trying to figure out what gear I should be aiming for while riding and I got in this crazy overthinking situation where I am questioning the way I ride.

I am sharing here for the benefits of all, and hopefully you find this useful.

 

I know the T7 motor is great in any gear, but I realized that I am loving more the low end behaviour and end up in a gear that is too tall when I am in a tight spot.

I always start in 2nd, shift to 3rd as soon as it's moving, and end up in 4th most of the time.

I would love that 6th gear to be much much longer, like an overdrive, even it it means it will not have power. I am in 6th gear mostly on highways.

 

I had a look at the HP-Torque graphs from Cycle World (https://www.cycleworld.com/story/bikes/how-much-power-does-the-2021-yamaha-tenere-700-make/)

image.jpeg.42da5bde7a5175c4d859eb057b2b5f0d.jpeg

This is one of the few usable graphs out there that show the torque down low, before the 4k RPM.

HP = Torque * RPM / 5252  This horsepower formula confirms that Torque is the mother of all 🙂 and that the HP numbers are marketing to sell more bikes since you get higher numbers at the far end of the RPM spectrum.

 

Since I am trying to add some details to that graph, I had to manually measure the results they got so I am really approximating their approximation. I was able to get a table out of this graph and managed to get some usable data,  like this:

image.png.494274bc82c4048954719d6b99dbe4b1.png 

Now to be honest, I do not see a dip in power in the 2750RPM range so I am not sure how accurate the graph are, or if there are better more accurate numbers out there for a stock T7.

 

Then I mixed in the gears and drive ratios ... info came from (https://www.gearingcommander.com/)

 

image.png.5455878b87bbe782864eb9376d902c8a.png

 

When you add the rear wheel size, you are now able to calculate speed in each gear based on RPM.  This gives you theoretical speed in each gear.

image.png.f0356af08a088d7e1a3a12ce9077a600.png

 

And then you mix this with the torque data you get:

image.png.b46e01b57d76a35ff436a93cb2a6460e.png

 

Then reality strikes. (legal speed limit in Canada is 100km/h) and it makes some of the gears redundant.

If you look at the graph you realize that you get similar power no matter the gear you are in, and it makes sense seeing how nice the CP2 motor is. 

 

Looking at the graph, I realize that maybe the low end dip is really there and it's what makes me shift early. 

So now I have a small justification to force myself to keep a gear longer. 

Here is how I change gears most of the time. 

  image.png.b68034a12c663f4f3354b0d30bdbb1ae.png

 

Thank you for listening to my ramble, at least now I have something to go back to if I forget and maybe I can find some tips or confirmations in the process to make me a better rider.

Peace 🙂 

 

Good explanation." When you add the rear wheel size, you are now able to calculate speed in each gear based on RPM.  This gives you theoretical speed in each gear. And then you mix this with the torque data you get:"

 

Gear/Torque mix graph shows third gear it's a bit better ones. Third gear is really fun IMHO.

 

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5 hours ago, MGG said:

I am trying to figure out what gear I should be aiming for while riding

I kind'a think you wear a pocket protector in your shirt pocket and white tape on your glasses

 

 image.jpeg.d5155923e6694b36df58b9045de89da9.jpeg

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We are all tattooed in our cradles with the beliefs of our tribe

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Just change the front sprocket to a 16t and you’ll have the sixth gear you’re looking for and first becomes more useful on the road.

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overlandrider.com

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In town, I tend to use 3rd between 30-40 km/h (speedo readings!), we have a lot of speed limit zones with 30 km/h.

If it's a 50 km/h zone, I use 4th. 4th feels ok from 45km/h, and good from around 50-52 km/h. Sometimes, on long straight roads with no traffic lights or so, I even use 5th (55 km/h speedo reading).

Usually I ride in 5th up to 70 km/h, then switch to 6th.

 

And some other times, I pull 1st until 50-60, and 2nd, and then realize I'm way above speed limit when switching to 3rd.

 

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11 hours ago, MGG said:

I am trying to figure out what gear I should be aiming for while riding...

 

Well straight up you are thinking about it all wrong.

There is no such thing as 'the right gear'.

If there was a 'right gear' then there wouldn't be six of them to choose from...

The gear you should be in depends on how fast you are going, and how the engine performs in that gear at that speed.

 

The way you should think about it is what speed should the motor be going for a given situation.

If you want maximum performance then it's going to be a high RPM.

For most driving it's going to be 'somewhere in the middle'.

Low engine speeds are for taking off in first or second, and the engine should not be run at full throttle at low speeds.

 

For the T7, based on my riding 'somewhere in the middle' is 4000-6000rpm'

The engine has very little performance below 4k which is why you "end up in a gear that is too tall when I am in a tight spot".

No internal combustion engine performs well that low in it's speed range. It's half the reason you don't find dynographs measuring at those speeds.

The other half is of course the simple fact nobody who ever had their vehicle dyno-graphed is concerned with 'the least amount of power' their vehicle can produce...

 

 

 

 

 

11 hours ago, MGG said:

HP = Torque * RPM / 5252  This horsepower formula confirms that Torque is the mother of all 🙂 and that the HP numbers are marketing to sell more bikes since you get higher numbers at the far end of the RPM spectrum.

 

picard-facepalm-face-palm-300x168.jpg.75499d6d48b0804f3d41421fe64694ad.jpg

 

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As a former(still Qualified Instructor) and current driver tester (all categories) I get asked this question regularly and I have a set answer....."you're asking the wrong question, when you figure out the correct question you should be able to work the answer yourself".

If you struggle to work out any part of this go to a well qualified instructor in person (not over the internet) and get them to help you find YOUR answer.

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This might be a useless effort but as long as it helps me understand my T7 better I am happy.

Thank you for sharing your wisdom.

 

I did some cleanup ... and I have my own answer to the question.

I am sharing just in case someone else is curios.

 

Yes I am interested in torque since I don't want to rev the heel out of it. 

Everyone has their own opinion and this is mine, at least for now,  until I get better numbers.

image.png.e2c28b9a3bbc4cc5f2d7349e5faf1e8a.png

 

Now I'm going shopping for pocket protectors and white tape for glasses. 🤣

 

Edited by MGG
added note on torque curve images ... gear ratios not factored in
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Wow, your 6th gear stops at 230 km/hr. Then i'm already in 8th...🤪

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On 4/23/2022 at 1:56 AM, DuncMan said:

Just change the front sprocket to a 16t and you’ll have the sixth gear you’re looking for and first becomes more useful on the road.


^^^^ this

 

if you are primarily riding on the street...or just gravel road riding.....a 16th front sprocket makes the bike better in everyway

 

6th becomes a high speed cruiser or a very relaxed OD gear ....the rest of the gears are speread out a bit more and 1st becomes a usuable gear 

 

if yer off road riding the stock 15th is ideal

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 58yrs old/brother/husband/father/paramedic/soldier🇨🇦 

 

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20 hours ago, MGG said:

 

 

Yes I am interested in torque since I don't want to rev the heel out of it. 

Everyone has their own opinion and this is mine, at least for now,  until I get better numbers.

 

You don't want to rev the hell out of it? How do you define "rev the hell out of it"? 

 

Running 4k-6.5k is where the engine is going to produce it's most efficient output, being the run up to max torque, but it doesn't redline till somewhere after 10k.  Running around there (4k-6.5k) is definitely not "revving the hell out of it". 

 

I genuinely don't understand why people desperately want to lug the poor CP2.  It's not a crappy air cooled vtwin, or 90's era thumper (*cough* KLR *cough*).  It's one of the most solid, reliable motorcycle engines currently available. 

 

Why make it perform worse?

 

Edit: looking back at this, it seems pretty aggressive.  I don't mean it that way.  Just the underlying thinking escapes me entirely.  It's like people have been riding 650 singles for a long time and their perspective is wierdly skewed by that. 

Edited by Wintersdark
Add disclaimer; don't mean this comment aggressively
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1 hour ago, Wintersdark said:

You don't want to rev the hell out of it? How do you define "rev the hell out of it"? 

 

Running 4k-6.5k is where the engine is going to produce it's most efficient output, being the run up to max torque, but it doesn't redline till somewhere after 10k.  Running around there (4k-6.5k) is definitely not "revving the hell out of it". 

 

I genuinely don't understand why people desperately want to lug the poor CP2.  It's not a crappy air cooled vtwin, or 90's era thumper (*cough* KLR *cough*).  It's one of the most solid, reliable motorcycle engines currently available. 

 

Why make it perform worse?

 

Edit: looking back at this, it seems pretty aggressive.  I don't mean it that way.  Just the underlying thinking escapes me entirely.  It's like people have been riding 650 singles for a long time and their perspective is wierdly skewed by that. 

There are only two reasons I can think of: Less fuel consumption (although I am not sure where her "sweet spot" really is 😏) and less noise.

Personally, both matter to me (the former more than the latter)- but definitely in the 4-6.5k range the engine is far from screaming. Pleasant tone, actually. But that's true for 3k as well, imho.

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My 2c...  I try to stay off paved roads as much as possible.  I don't mind the long way around as burning more fuel is more fun.

 

I have geared every bike I used for dual sport lower.  More torque in every gear.  On most bikes this meant less fuel consumption.  My compromise is lower traveling speeds.  Max 100km/h.  More to see at that speed.  I wouldn't mind going up on the rear.  A crawler 1st gear is easier on the clutch in technical bits.

 

On a two up ride this weekend I maxed out at 185km/h in 5th.  Going to 6th the speed didn't increase.  With a lower gearing I believe I could have gotten more speed.  This was to give the G/F a taste of speed on a long straight.

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10 hours ago, katana said:

My 2c...  I try to stay off paved roads as much as possible.  I don't mind the long way around as burning more fuel is more fun.

 

I have geared every bike I used for dual sport lower.  More torque in every gear.  On most bikes this meant less fuel consumption.  My compromise is lower traveling speeds.  Max 100km/h.  More to see at that speed.  I wouldn't mind going up on the rear.  A crawler 1st gear is easier on the clutch in technical bits.

 

On a two up ride this weekend I maxed out at 185km/h in 5th.  Going to 6th the speed didn't increase.  With a lower gearing I believe I could have gotten more speed.  This was to give the G/F a taste of speed on a long straight.

This is why I don't understand people adding a front tooth.  It just makes no sense to me at all, except I suppose if you're looking to run at very low RPM to conserve fuel as much as possible and give up performance (but in that case, why not get a smaller-displacement bike in the first place?).  If you gear the T7 lower, you actually gain top speed, you don't lose it.   Generally speaking, 6th is only for lowering engine RPM as the bike (even the MT07 with far better aerodynamics) is drag limited in 5th.  It often results - as you said - in *better* fuel consumption, not worse, because when you're running more in the powerband of the engine it's more efficient.  Running at higher speeds (with drag being exponential) and lower engine efficiency ought to make it all worse.

 

And yeah, it's way easier riding in technical situations with lower gearing, though I respect many don't do that so it wouldn't be an advantage.  

 

Riding at 3k... I mean, sure, you can do it, but the bike is barely past idle, it's making precious little power, and you're not really taking advantage of what the CP2 has to offer.  I think I'm going to do some tests tonight and see what fuel consumption differences are between 3k rpm and 5k, For Science.

 

I'm perfectly happy to be wrong, but I'm 100% sure this is a matter of wholly subjective "it just feels like it's revving too high" not any actual measurable benefit.  And for sure, if you're doing it because of that wholly subjective reason, that's fine.  I mean, people will do what they do.  But this thread is about what gear is best.

On 4/22/2022 at 3:58 PM, Dougie said:

It’s a mental thing. Sound and vibes. I never feel the need to speed in my wagon, 250k miles diesel landy. My ears wouldn’t take it. That’s where governments are wrong. To cut speeding,  just get rid of NVH departments in the manufacturers. 😉
the t7 does sound and feel like she’s trying too hard at motorway speeds, (even though she isn’t)because of being a twin, hence the sprocket swap people are doing. Get some earplugs and wring it like she wants. 😁. But not in front of the Mounties. 🍺

 

And this is exactly what I mean.  The T7 isn't trying to hard at 4000-6500rpm, not at all.  That's square in the midrange. 

On 4/22/2022 at 12:06 PM, MGG said:

 

This is one of the few usable graphs out there that show the torque down low, before the 4k RPM.

HP = Torque * RPM / 5252  This horsepower formula confirms that Torque is the mother of all 🙂 and that the HP numbers are marketing to sell more bikes since you get higher numbers at the far end of the RPM spectrum.

 

This is badly, badly misunderstanding the impact of torque and HP.  If this where true, Harley's would be the performance kings. 

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What, you mean they’re not? 

🤔😂

Apologies for anyone out there with a tractor powered handbag. 😉

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44 minutes ago, Wintersdark said:

I'm perfectly happy to be wrong

You are wrong! (wink)

 

Yamaha geared the street MT-07 (Same motor) with a larger front / smaller back sprockets for a reason.

Yamaha is smarter than most of us.

I use my T7 95% on the street, so I feel good about going to a 16-tooth sprocket.

I didn't buy the MT-07 because the T7 is cooler!

There is no right/wrong.... just ride!

Edited by Hibobb
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3 hours ago, Wintersdark said:

I'm perfectly happy to be wrong

In theory you are right but in real life the bike reacts with a twist.
I changed to a 16T front for fuel economy on my next trip.
I don't want a bigger tank or a Camel tank, just my 2 1L MSR bottles and the standard tank and i expected the TET Finland not be too technical but i did was afraid it took the play out.
And that where the twist came in, it pulls more on the low end. Offroad it drifts easier and onroad the front gets airborne a bit faster, also when you try to prevent it by eas it of the spot because it came up anyway once i opened the throttle once i had a little speed.
At this moment i have no reason to go back when i finished the trip.
I leave in July and start with a new chain set but i needed i new front sprocket and wanted to test it before i left so i didn't had to stick with it if i really didn't liked it.
Maybe when i get in technical situations and it giving me a hard time i will switch back but i just don't have the feeling that will be the case.

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5 hours ago, Hibobb said:

You are wrong! (wink)

 

Yamaha geared the street MT-07 (Same motor) with a larger front / smaller back sprockets for a reason.

Yamaha is smarter than most of us.

I use my T7 95% on the street, so I feel good about going to a 16-tooth sprocket.

I didn't buy the MT-07 because the T7 is cooler!

There is no right/wrong.... just ride!

The correct answer is...........

6th GEAR WFO.....

Speed limit 110kmh or 110kmh...Oh hell no, thats not the limit. My bike will go much faster...  😉

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6 hours ago, Mx375 said:

The correct answer is...........

6th GEAR WFO.....

Speed limit 110kmh or 110kmh...Oh hell no, thats not the limit. My bike will go much faster...  😉

What is a speed limit?

 

Greetings from Germany 😁

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P.S.: Just yesterday a petition reached the quorum to be passed to our government. It calls for a speed limit of 100 km/h (62 mph) and "car-free sundays". Well, the latter sounds great!

 

Anyways, I find @Ray Ride4life 's observations regarding the 16t sprocket really interesting. It seems like a "you can have the cake AND eat it" phenomenon.

 

I think I will perform some measurements by myself. Like, ride 50/80/100 km/h (typical speed limits in Europe) in different gears and observe fuel consumption on the dash. Might be tricky to find a suitable road for such measurements.

Edited by Tenerider
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