Tractive closed cartridge

[Jason]

Hi all, 

 

I hope everyone is keeping well? 
 

Over Christmas I decided to treat myself and my T7 to a whole new suspension setup.

 

Tractive X-TREME shock with an 85 N/M spring

 

& 

 

Tractive pro, closed cartridge kit with a 6 N/M spring

Now a bit on myself, I am 81 ish kg without my riding kit. So while I haven’t weighed myself and probably should with it all on I’d imagine this jumps to about 86/87kg. Especially with a camelback of water on my back. 

 

I got my local bike shop to complete the install and I then setup the suspension as per the recommended settings in the manual (to get started at least). with 0 preload I was getting 22% sag again without my riding gear so I suspect this will be around 30% when I gear up. (I know I need to double check this but need to grab the misses to help . Watch this space)
 

Anyway I got the first spin in yesterday, just a quick local loop. First impressions was it was super hard, so much so I was only using half the travel on my forks. I reduced compression a lot, think I landed at 5 clicks off fully open as opposed to 10 clicks from full closed like the recommendations suggest. I also backed off rebound another 5 clicks from full if memory serves. The fork began to feel much better then and used a good 3/4 of the travel on a less harsh piece of track so getting there with it. The shock is a bit more confusing to me because it has low speed & high speed compression. 
 

Anyway the reason for my thread. Can anyone help with some suggested settings for my weight specifically? I’ll manage to sort the fork with my own knowledge I think, but the shock is a bit harder with more settings thrown into the mix. 
 

I ride 80% off road, mostly single track these days with fire roads between. Some tracks are quite rough & used in a lot of enduro events. I can already tell the suspension will be amazing for this riding, I just need to dial it.
 

Thanks in advance for the help

Edited January 9, 2023 by Jason

[Tenerider]

Same weight as you, 6.4 N/mm on the front (not mounted yet) and 85 N/mm for the rear were recommended from my Tractive dealer. He took my crash bars, skid, center stand in account when choosing the springs.

 

I have only ridden the rear shock yet, with the recommended stock clicker settings and about 5mm preload (giving me 37 mm free sag and 65 mm static sag in riding gear - mind I'm running the +25mm shock).

I found the settings to becomfortable BUT I'm mostly onroad. I guess the settings are "European" - most adventure bikes are being ridden strictly onroad over here.

 

@Ray Ride4life is running Touratech Extreme (very similar if not identical), perhaps he can share his settings. I found his setup to be fantastic.

[Hollybrook]

My Rally Raid open cartridges took a few rides to soften up, or maybe I just got used to them.  In any case, I would not call them plush but they have been great off road and confidence inspiring when pushed on road. 

 

I am running their stock clicker settings though I backed off a couple of clicks on compression in the front and low speed compression in the rear for cold weather riding. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Hollybrook

[Tenerider]

1 minute ago, Hollybrook said:

My Rally Raid open cartridges took a few rides to soften up, or maybe I just got used to them.  In any case, I would not call them plush but they have been great off road and confidence inspiring when pushed on road. 

This describes it well. When going slow, my rear doesn't feel plush. But when pushed, it is really planted and surprisingly comfortable as well.

[Hollybrook]

I have not had the opportunity to take any big jumps since installing the RR suspension, but have pushed it pretty hard on bumpy terrain.  While I have gotten into the hydraulic bump stop in the forks, I have not yet bottomed out.  With the stock suspension, that happened way too often.

[Ray Ride4life]

We have a lot of speed bumps in the Netherlands and they are mote comfortable at high speed.

I spent some time afjusting from the base settings recommended by Touratech and i have them dialed in quite wel.

But it's also a mix between personal preference and the terrain you ride.

[Jason]

Thanks for all the responses. What I’m hearing is perhaps I need to ride a couple of times and allow both to bed in a bit before perhaps diving into the settings too much

[Jason]

4 hours ago, Tenerider said:

Same weight as you, 6.4 N/mm on the front (not mounted yet) and 85 N/mm for the rear were recommended from my Tractive dealer. He took my crash bars, skid, center stand in account when choosing the springs.

 

I have only ridden the rear shock yet, with the recommended stock clicker settings and about 5mm preload (giving me 37 mm free sag and 65 mm static sag in riding gear - mind I'm running the +25mm shock).

I found the settings to becomfortable BUT I'm mostly onroad. I guess the settings are "European" - most adventure bikes are being ridden strictly onroad over here.

 

@Ray Ride4life is running Touratech Extreme (very similar if not identical), perhaps he can share his settings. I found his setup to be fantastic.

Interesting to hear you’re getting those sag settings with 5mm of preload. I need to head out again and double check all my findings and wear my riding gear at the same time. 

[Ray Ride4life]

I don't know how experienced you are but best is to set it to the levels provided with the kit which should be a descent baseline.
Don't worry about sag too much, just check if front and rear do the same when you sit on it.
From there go ride on the terrain you plan to ride most and start adjusting.

[Tenerider]

13 minutes ago, Jason said:

Interesting to hear you’re getting those sag settings with 5mm of preload. I need to head out again and double check all my findings and wear my riding gear at the same time. 

Roughly, it might be a bit less preload - but definitely not zero. I push down on the rear and let the bike settle (free sag). For static sag, I also push down as hard as possible and let the spring push the bike up.

Keep in mind that I have a centerstand (3.8 kg), a heavier skid (dunno the weight difference) and crash bars (3.6 kg,mostly on the front). But then, my exhaust saves 2kg or so on the rear...

[Tenerider]

P.S.: I don't have the hydraulic preload adjuster! It might be that when this one is set to minimum preload, it's actually the same preload as on my manual preload ring.

If you're getting 10% free sag and roughly 30% static sag, everything is fine. In theory, less preload is always better.

 

The manual recommends 20 mm preload - way too much for my weight. Probably a starting point...

Edited January 9, 2023 by Tenerider

[Ray Ride4life]

Don't set the rebound too fast.
Often made mistake thinking that a fast rebound get the wheel quicker back to the surface but you make a pogo-stick out of it.

[Jason]

3 hours ago, Ray Ride4life said:

I don't know how experienced you are but best is to set it to the levels provided with the kit which should be a descent baseline.
Don't worry about sag too much, just check if front and rear do the same when you sit on it.
From there go ride on the terrain you plan to ride most and start adjusting.

Cheers, ye that’s where I started but the base was way too hard for how I ride and what I ride. Experienced the worst arm pump I’ve had and that was only after an hour of single track. Usually do 4-5hrs. I back off the compression a lot along with rebound which helped the forks but I didn’t touch the shock. Hopefully I get out again this weekend for a bit longer and further testing

[Jason]

3 hours ago, Tenerider said:

P.S.: I don't have the hydraulic preload adjuster! It might be that when this one is set to minimum preload, it's actually the same preload as on my manual preload ring.

If you're getting 10% free sag and roughly 30% static sag, everything is fine. In theory, less preload is always better.

 

The manual recommends 20 mm preload - way too much for my weight. Probably a starting point...

I didn’t see that part in the manual where it recommends 20mm but that’s definitely way too much. As you rightly pointed out the less pre load the better, so I’m chuffed if I can maintain zero pre load and still achieve the correct sag levels. If the manual is recommending that much pre load then I suspect it also recommends too much of everything Anyway, more testing inbound

[Tenerider]

8 hours ago, Jason said:

I didn’t see that part in the manual where it recommends 20mm but that’s definitely way too much. As you rightly pointed out the less pre load the better, so I’m chuffed if I can maintain zero pre load and still achieve the correct sag levels. If the manual is recommending that much pre load then I suspect it also recommends too much of everything Anyway, more testing inbound

I think the 85 N/mm spring is recommended for rider weight "80-95 kg, plus pillion, plus luggage". So we'd be on the lower end of this range, which is great - lots of room left for getting fatter

[disco2000]

Hi guys!

Found this thread and thought to step in with my question instead of opening a new one.

 

I own the World Raid model ('22) and considering to upgrade my suspension.

I weight 100kg without my equipment. The OEM spring in not adequate for the job,even though I have tried to set it up. I have seen improvement but still I feel that a 90N/mm will work better.

 

So, I am considering the following:

 

1) I upgrade the front with the "Öhlins spring for cartridge Kit". I don't want to replace the whole cartridge.

 

https://www.yamaha-motor.eu/gb/en/products/motorcycles/adventure/t-n-r-700-world-raid-2023/accessories/hlins-spring-for-cartridge-kit/spr-08424-55-00/?path=/?page=1&categories.id=4550f3d4-d3f7-4d3b-b914-973cdaa3797c#/

 

2) a) Either upgrade only with the spring that Yamaha offers:

 

https://www.yamaha-motor.eu/gb/en/products/motorcycles/adventure/t-n-r-700-world-raid-2023/accessories/hlins-rear-shock-ya818/yam-00698-24-80/?path=/?page=1&categories.id=4550f3d4-d3f7-4d3b-b914-973cdaa3797c#/

 

b) Or I upgrade the whole suspension with the one from Tractive:
https://www.off-the-road.de/en/tenere-700/suspension-wheels/suspension/141285/tractive-suspension-shock-x-treme-pro-yamaha-tenere-700-world-raid-black?number=FDB-TTS-T7WR-PRO-BK-90

What are your thoughts?

Is it worth the replacement of the whole rear suspension? I believe yes.

But in such case, will I be fine with only replacing the springs in front?

 

 

[Jason]

4 hours ago, disco2000 said:

Hi guys!

Found this thread and thought to step in with my question instead of opening a new one.

 

I own the World Raid model ('22) and considering to upgrade my suspension.

I weight 100kg without my equipment. The OEM spring in not adequate for the job,even though I have tried to set it up. I have seen improvement but still I feel that a 90N/mm will work better.

 

So, I am considering the following:

 

1) I upgrade the front with the "Öhlins spring for cartridge Kit". I don't want to replace the whole cartridge.

 

https://www.yamaha-motor.eu/gb/en/products/motorcycles/adventure/t-n-r-700-world-raid-2023/accessories/hlins-spring-for-cartridge-kit/spr-08424-55-00/?path=/?page=1&categories.id=4550f3d4-d3f7-4d3b-b914-973cdaa3797c#/

 

2) a) Either upgrade only with the spring that Yamaha offers:

 

https://www.yamaha-motor.eu/gb/en/products/motorcycles/adventure/t-n-r-700-world-raid-2023/accessories/hlins-rear-shock-ya818/yam-00698-24-80/?path=/?page=1&categories.id=4550f3d4-d3f7-4d3b-b914-973cdaa3797c#/

 

b) Or I upgrade the whole suspension with the one from Tractive:
https://www.off-the-road.de/en/tenere-700/suspension-wheels/suspension/141285/tractive-suspension-shock-x-treme-pro-yamaha-tenere-700-world-raid-black?number=FDB-TTS-T7WR-PRO-BK-90

What are your thoughts?

Is it worth the replacement of the whole rear suspension? I believe yes.

But in such case, will I be fine with only replacing the springs in front?

 

 

Doesn’t the WR sport a really impressive KYB suspension in the front already? I don’t know an awful lot about the WR but from my limited experience it is already a really good fork with adjustable preload, rebound and compression? The shock could probably be improved upon and I’d start there perhaps? 

[Tenerider]

@JasonHope you found some time meanwhile for playing around with the settings!

 

I recently installed the cartridges as well and can only confirm your findings about the stock settings, especially compression damping.

 

As I said, I'm running 6.4 N/mm springs, which require only about 2-3mm preload on the cap to get me to 30% sag with me fully equipped (free sag is roughly 20%!!!).

I'm using one 5mm spacer which is required to get the springs to barely touch the fork cap, since I have the +25mm cartridges. So, with this spacer only it's actually at zero preload.

 

I performed some test rides on the local bumpy roads and one small patch of a gravel road with lots of deep, consecutive potholes.

 

Today I finally found adequate settings for my riding. All clicks counted from fully closed (max dampening) as described in their manual.

 

Forks: Comp 14 (default 10), Reb 11 (default 10).

Tractive recommend not to change comp more than +/- 5 clicks from their defaults.

 

Shock: HS Comp 15, LS Comp 14, Reb 12. On all three, 10 is the default setting. HS and LS Comp may be set +/- 8 clicks, Reb again +/- 6.

 

I didn't push the bike very hard, but found it to be quite smooth onroad and VERY stable on bumps etc, also in tight corners. Not exactly comfortable: It offers plenty of feedback plus amazing traction and cornering feel. It seems to ask for more and more speed really.

 

I chose the "Extreme Pro" cartridge and shock. I'm not sure how the clicker settings compare to the "normal" Extreme products.

My feeling is these parts are really meant to be ridden hard. The stock settings are probably good for aggressive riding in rough terrain and with even more dampening could satisfy guys like Cory and Pol.

And I think I feel them getting better with a bit of break-in, but I haven't done more than 200 km on the cartridges yet.

 

Still thinking about my spring rate. With all gear I am easily over 90kg (almost couldn't believe it), but the softer 6 N/mm spring might work for me. But then, I'd probably need a lot more preload.

[Jason]

On 2/22/2023 at 3:46 PM, Tenerider said:

@JasonHope you found some time meanwhile for playing around with the settings!

 

I recently installed the cartridges as well and can only confirm your findings about the stock settings, especially compression damping.

 

As I said, I'm running 6.4 N/mm springs, which require only about 2-3mm preload on the cap to get me to 30% sag with me fully equipped (free sag is roughly 20%!!!).

I'm using one 5mm spacer which is required to get the springs to barely touch the fork cap, since I have the +25mm cartridges. So, with this spacer only it's actually at zero preload.

 

I performed some test rides on the local bumpy roads and one small patch of a gravel road with lots of deep, consecutive potholes.

 

Today I finally found adequate settings for my riding. All clicks counted from fully closed (max dampening) as described in their manual.

 

Forks: Comp 14 (default 10), Reb 11 (default 10).

Tractive recommend not to change comp more than +/- 5 clicks from their defaults.

 

Shock: HS Comp 15, LS Comp 14, Reb 12. On all three, 10 is the default setting. HS and LS Comp may be set +/- 8 clicks, Reb again +/- 6.

 

I didn't push the bike very hard, but found it to be quite smooth onroad and VERY stable on bumps etc, also in tight corners. Not exactly comfortable: It offers plenty of feedback plus amazing traction and cornering feel. It seems to ask for more and more speed really.

 

I chose the "Extreme Pro" cartridge and shock. I'm not sure how the clicker settings compare to the "normal" Extreme products.

My feeling is these parts are really meant to be ridden hard. The stock settings are probably good for aggressive riding in rough terrain and with even more dampening could satisfy guys like Cory and Pol.

And I think I feel them getting better with a bit of break-in, but I haven't done more than 200 km on the cartridges yet.

 

Still thinking about my spring rate. With all gear I am easily over 90kg (almost couldn't believe it), but the softer 6 N/mm spring might work for me. But then, I'd probably need a lot more preload.

 

Hey man, sorry for the delay in responding it's been a manic few days. 

 

I went to a suspension specialist who actually recommended I get lighter springs but he did perform some wizardry and advise before spending more money that I ride the setup he did and see how I got on. Also with more use the suspension would bed in a little bit so would naturally soften up a wee bit too. Settings from fully OPEN are just 4 clicks of compression and 5 of rebound. Originally it was 5 and 5 but I recently just reduced the compression by 1 more click. It seems really good now, like a big rally bike and leagues ahead of what the stock suspension was which is so confidence inspiring. I may at some point still go for the lighter springs, after spending nearly €3k on the suspension I want to ensure it is set up perfectly and I think the only way to achieve that is with lighter springs. But overall I'm still really happy. I probably should buy a smaller bike to go alongside my T7 for my single track days but for now, she's mint

[Tenerider]

2 hours ago, Jason said:

 

Hey man, sorry for the delay in responding it's been a manic few days. 

 

I went to a suspension specialist who actually recommended I get lighter springs but he did perform some wizardry and advise before spending more money that I ride the setup he did and see how I got on. Also with more use the suspension would bed in a little bit so would naturally soften up a wee bit too. Settings from fully OPEN are just 4 clicks of compression and 5 of rebound. Originally it was 5 and 5 but I recently just reduced the compression by 1 more click. It seems really good now, like a big rally bike and leagues ahead of what the stock suspension was which is so confidence inspiring. I may at some point still go for the lighter springs, after spending nearly €3k on the suspension I want to ensure it is set up perfectly and I think the only way to achieve that is with lighter springs. But overall I'm still really happy. I probably should buy a smaller bike to go alongside my T7 for my single track days but for now, she's mint

Thanks buddy, no need to hurry!

Sounds cool, I think I should "dare" further opening both compression and rebound. I still wonder why Tractive recommend not to go +/- 5 clicks or so from their defaults. Especially opening the valves further shouldn't cause any mechanical issues to my knowledge.

 

And I'm also considering going to a lighter spring (which would be the 6 N/mm probably).

[Jason]

I have a feeling the only reason Tractive recommend staying within a threshold is to get the most out of their suspension. I suspect and they're probably right, that if you need to go outside of their recommendations you'd be better off with lighter springs. 

[Ray Ride4life]

But why do they add more than 10 clicks?

I try to remember to look at my Touratech instructions.

[Tenerider]

And in theory the spring rate should mainly affect ride height (and suspension travel for a given input force).

 

Dampening settings should determine the "softness" mainly. And especially with less dampening (damping?) there should be no technical problem. It's just a higher oil flow rate.

[Hollybrook]

My understanding from years of tuning race car suspensions is that you need to match damping to the spring rate. The springs support the bike in all situations, and the dampers keep the springs from oscillating by controlling the rate of motion and the rate of change of motion. If they are not fairly well balanced, you don't end up with optimum control of wheel motion. 

[Ray Ride4life]

I checked my Touratech instructions, these are the same as the Tractive. Touratech gave Tractive a lot of money to develop them and Tractive was not supposed to sell them under their own brand but that's another story and maybe they changed something after all to avoid lawsuits.
My instructions give 10 clicks from zero as the baseline and is advised not to go more than +/- 6 clicks of that baseline so in my book that will be no problem to go 7 or 8 clicks off.
I think you can see it as a Co² or Argon bottle on a welding machine. When you open it fully to the end and start welding it can be very hard to close it again, open it and then turn it halve a turn back to close to prevent it.