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Spring upgrade, what to expect?


Boyca

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Hey guys,

I'm currently looking into changing my rear spring and eventually my front. I've kind of lost track of how much weight I've been adding onto my bike and then also realising that the standard spring is so under sprung for the general Western man. I currently have outback motortek x-frame panier racks in the back, alu chain guard, alu oem rally bashplate 4mm, Heed upper crashbars. My rider's weight with full gear is probably close to 92 kg's. I've ridden with this + say 20kg of luggage on trips. Since I progressively added these mods on I find it hard to recall how my bike felt when I purchased it, plus the rally edition already comes heavier than a standard anyway. Because of this I don't exactly know what to expect once I uprate my rear spring. How and where will I feel the difference if I go to say a 90nm spring? 

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I got K-tech springs and valves fitted, exact values are in my topic called "full K-tech suspenssion upgrade". Contacted suspenssion specialist with my weight in kit and full weight of bike ugrades and he choosed spring rates.

But i can tell you comfort o tarmac has decreased significantly. Its now great offroad on faster sections and jumps, slightly to stiff on wet offroad as i prefer softer setup for mud (better grip) but on tarmac its just less comfortable and at he beginning it was even annoing... now i got used to it, but sometimes on tarmac i do miss this stock undersprung suspension that makes you feel like you riding a couch 🙂

But i never ride loaded for trips, only me on the bike and only crashbars fitted as extra, so it might be a diffeent story for a fully loaded bike.

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On 6/10/2022 at 1:54 AM, Boyca said:

Hey guys,

I'm currently looking into changing my rear spring and eventually my front. I've kind of lost track of how much weight I've been adding onto my bike and then also realising that the standard spring is so under sprung for the general Western man. I currently have outback motortek x-frame panier racks in the back, alu chain guard, alu oem rally bashplate 4mm, Heed upper crashbars. My rider's weight with full gear is probably close to 92 kg's. I've ridden with this + say 20kg of luggage on trips. Since I progressively added these mods on I find it hard to recall how my bike felt when I purchased it, plus the rally edition already comes heavier than a standard anyway. Because of this I don't exactly know what to expect once I uprate my rear spring. How and where will I feel the difference if I go to say a 90nm spring? 

For me updating the spring meant that rear suspension isn't that harsh. I actually became more plush. This might seem quite counter intuitive, but when you start to think about physics it starts to make more sense. 

 

T7 has progressive rear linkage. What it means is that there is a mechanical system that will make the spring behave like it's progressive. If you have too much rider sag it will mean that progression gets "eaten up" and first part of the progression is already used and suspension starts from a relatively high progression rate. That translates to harshness because 1mm upwards motion will require more force (because relative spring rate will be bigger because of progressive nature of linkage).

 

For me stiffer spring on back ment less harshness on- and offroad. I was actually quite surprised about the difference in comfort increase. Especially with my travel gear on. I went on with compromise spring. Tad too stiff for me alone, slightly undersprung with my travel gear. Nothing some preload can fix though. 

 

On offroad, tracking is somewhat better especially in small bumbs. On bigger stuff rear doesn't bottom out. Although that wasn't a problem for me with stock spring either. 

 

Steering is slightly more calm because of negligible change in rake. This is more prominent in hard braking and steering in. Overall it's slightly more firmer and there is slight improvement on braking and overall firmness. No night and day stuff. Just slight overall stuff. Although I have to say I did add some preload to my front before actually updating my front springs, so I have no direct comparison between stock vs. updated.  

 

Things @Bartek describes in his post are IMO more likely to be result of complete suspension upgrade. On my experience upgraded shocks almost always result to drop in overall comfort. especially when optimized to offroad. Upgraded shocks tend to track better so you feel every bump under the wheels. When you are pushing your bike, this is information you need to know but when touring, this constant reporting on every single crack on a pavement can be quite tiresome. 

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@witgen Out of interest - what is your total weight and spring rates?

I found this swingarm progressiveness largerly overrated. Riding it back to back with other bikes wih PDS suspension i canot see any benefits. I think yamaha employ some marketing to cover up for rubbish quality stock shock 🙂 But that's just my opinion.

 

 

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@witgenThanks for the nice write up. I'm also curious to your spring values. What is your experience with the changes you made to the front pre load? I haven't touched them yet myself but I do find that my front dives too much, especially during braking.

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1 hour ago, Bartek said:

@witgen Out of interest - what is your total weight and spring rates?

Good question. I have to check this out. I'm fairly certain I have 95N/mm spring on back and 6.6 N/mm on front. I weigh roughly 110kg  and my touring gear is around 25kg. Sag is about 55mm with my riding gear on and I weigh about 110kg.

Although I think it is not comparable to stock bike. I have a custom seat, custom foot pegs and custom handlebar and I have a seating position that is different from stock. So it changes the geometry somewhat. How much it does that, I have no idea. 

 

1 hour ago, Bartek said:

I found this swingarm progressiveness largerly overrated. Riding it back to back with other bikes wih PDS suspension i canot see any benefits. I think yamaha employ some marketing to cover up for rubbish quality stock shock 🙂 But that's just my opinion.

It's good to point out that for example KTM uses progressive shocks that do similar things than progressive linkage. So difference isn't that obvious. To be honest I think PDS is superior over progressive linkage as long as you have good progressive shock. But we are splitting hairs here. Fact is that there is way too much sag with stock springs and that does add harshness to rear suspension. If I was 25kg lighter I would probably only notice the fact that rear suspension is slightly firmer on big bumbs. But I have no reference point so I'm basically guessing here. 

 

And I don't think T7 has a rubbish rear shock. It's just not optimized for offroad. It's more like compromise shock emphasis on non-offroad riding. Interestingly almost everybody thinks T7 is better on road than 790/890. I wonder why that is. Is it because Yamaha engineers just don't know how to tune suspension and geometry to work off road? Or maybe they knew all along that they will be making World Raid version with proper off road suspension and the goal for base version was to appeal to wider audience even though it meant using more street oriented parts...

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22 minutes ago, Boyca said:

@witgenThanks for the nice write up. I'm also curious to your spring values. What is your experience with the changes you made to the front pre load? I haven't touched them yet myself but I do find that my front dives too much, especially during braking.

Front springs don't have preload adjustment. I made my own adjustment blocks out of aluminium.  I think most riders could actually skip front spring upgrade with these. Only problem is that if you don't have tools to make your own preload blocks, it's probably cheaper to buy new springs than it is to get someone do those for you. 

 

Diving is a trade off for long stroke soft suspension usually used in adventure bikes. You cannot solve diving issues with stiffer springs. It's more of problem handled by low speed damping, but adding that creates other issues. There is a reason we have so many anti-dive solutions in forks. You also cannot actually adjust low speed damping in Tenere unless you revalve the suspension or get fully adjustable shocks. 

 

Suspension is always a collection of compromises. Address one issue and you have a set of new issues. I think T7 suspension is wonderfully balanced between on/off road driving still maintaining relatively good touring capabilities. And that's quite a feat to achieve that. If you want offroad machine for technical off road driving, well... You want a supermoto, well... you want jack of all trades mediocre on everything? Bingo!

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@witgenI know there's something to adjust on the front stocks, I'm guessing it's dampening? It's quite a realisationthat I don't know enough about suspension 😅

I also seen in videos that the spacers can help with a lot, that the stock front sag is actually pretty damn bad as well. I like having a jack of all trades, it's something you gotta learn to live with on the t7,  it grows on you as well I feel. Knowing I can be alright to good in almost every scenario.

Edited by Boyca
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@witgen I'm not sure what you are referring to saying KTM uses progressive shocks...  shock absorbers can be valved differently, but they will also behave linear, as shimms will flow oil through at even velocity at every part of the stroke.  Only springs can be progressive, and they are not good offroad as they are diffcult to "feel" by demanding riders.

 

As for standard suspension on T7 - everyone got his opinion, i weight 101kg in full kit, ride agressivly on tarmac and fast'ish offroad and for me stock was just rubbish - to name precisely:

- Undersprung, so high speed wobble on tarmac, bottoming out at any faster pace offroad, and if you jump higher than 30cm high front will bottom out harshly

- Lack of reaction for adjusment - very unprecise clickers

- Rebound damping nearly non-existent on the back - effect is a massive pogo stick reaction

 

All above was sorted out by K-Tech kit, but at a price of the comfort, and i'm ok with that.

But it's worth mentioning i have come directly from WP CS4 with 280mm travel on 701 Enduro, and this was best suspension i have come across on dual sport bike - it could be set up softer for tarmac riding and it won't still bottom out when pushed offroad on massive jumps thanks to long travel. It is impossible phisically to achieve this with 210mm travel.

 

I cannot compare Tenere tarmac traction to 790/890, as i only ridden one offorad, but can compare to 990ADV, and Tenere is better round the twisties, but this is down to geometry in my opinion- rake, wheelbase, swingarm angle to main sprocket ect. T7 is brillant, 990 just feel long and sluggish compare to T7.  On other hand 701 feels too light and past 100mph you just about to get airborne 🤣

 

To sum this up - it all depands from everyone's subjective feeling - I'm 101kg , have 85Nm spring on the back, compression damping set to minimum (within technical reasonability) and complainin it's hard on the road... While Withen is only 9kg heavier, got 95Nm spring and saying bike get more comfy.

 

I bet it didn't help Boyca at all 🤣

 

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48 minutes ago, Bartek said:

I bet it didn't help Boyca at all 🤣

Well as someone else currently trying to piece together their suspension upgrade, this thread sure didn't help yet either, ha!

 

I'm 90kg with my gear on.  Outback crash bars+Kreiga OS system+ Big dry bag.

 

high speed offroad it was actually not bad...until you hit some surprise little bump, and you are quickly reminded this isn't a tuned DRZ anymore. It also feels practically unrideable with a 130lb passenger....Although I guess to be expected. 

 

I was considering an 85 rear spring, and 6.6 fork springs (currently reading into heavier oil as well?), to just compensate for the addons and get it back to the mentioned "jack of all trades".  I talked to a few of the suspension companies and they all were different in their suggestions.  So back to the drawing board.

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I am 97kg without gear and rode my bike last season with a 90N ktech rear and 6.3N front springs.  I wanted to ride it for a season and see how good or bad it was with just springs before deciding if it needed valving changes.

 

Springs alone were a huge improvement and I almost considered stopping at that.  I am older and don't ride it hard or jump it off-road, but the rear still wallowed and I wanted to fix that.  Turns out the stock shock was low on pressure with only 80psi.  I would have liked to tried it with the proper pressure, but it was apart and had a local suspension shop do the revalve anyway.  

Eventually I also had the front revalved, but honestly for the riding I do I think I could have left the front alone.  

 

The stock springs give a plush ride, but never felt planted or in control to me.  I prefer a more firm planted feel and this is the first thing you will notice when fitting stiffer springs.

 

In hindsight I wish I had gone with 6.6N fork springs.  The 6.3N springs have reduced the brake dive up front, but I think one step stiffer would have made it even better.  

 

 

 

 

Edited by williestreet
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2 hours ago, williestreet said:

I am 97kg without gear and rode my bike last season with a 90N ktech rear and 9.3N front springs.

Wow, I am 85kg and was recommended 6.3N fork springs, and stock rear spring.   Looking at KTech's rate to weight suggestions, isn't that like having welded forks up front?  *Did you mean 6.3 and 6.6N?

Edited by T7MapleLeaf
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I have 7.8N (.8kg/mm) fork springs and a 97N rear, being 140kg.  It was a very shocking change, but now that I've spent some time adjusting compression and rebound settings it's marvelous.  

 

Makes the bike *substantially* taller for me too as there's a proper amount of rider sag vs just collapsing under my weight.  

 

Keeping the rebound and compression where they had been with the stock springs was awful, though.  The rebound was insufficient to handle the power the new springs would store leading to bouncybouncybouncy, and while I'd no longer bottom out the suspension easily, it felt pretty damn hard clearly communicating every crack in pavement.  

 

Now, though?  I'm a few clicks up harder on rebound, and several softer on compression fore and aft, and it's feeling so much better. 

 

It's been a tedious process though, adjust, ride for a few days, adjust, repeat.  

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7 hours ago, T7MapleLeaf said:

Wow, I am 85kg and was recommended 6.3N fork springs, and stock rear spring.   Looking at KTech's rate to weight suggestions, isn't that like having welded forks up front?  *Did you mean 6.3 and 6.6N?

Sorry mistyped that,  yes 6,3 and 6.9.

 

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I truely am lost in this suspension game aren't I? Oh boy. Vastly different opinions and experiences, it seems like the only way is to go through that journey myself into figuring it out. Might become a costly one that way though.

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1 hour ago, Boyca said:

I truely am lost in this suspension game aren't I? Oh boy. Vastly different opinions and experiences, it seems like the only way is to go through that journey myself into figuring it out. Might become a costly one that way though.

Here's a few ideas that I copied from previous posts buried in the Suspension section.  Hopefully someone has posted numbers close to what you're working with thus helping limit costly trial and error. 

 

This was taken from the RallyRaid website and in my experience, seems to be spot on.

 

Select the appropriate spring, from the drop-down menu above, based on rider, passenger & luggage loads below:
Rider(up to 75kg, inc clothing) with max 50kg luggage.................................................80N/mm
Rider(up to 85kg, inc clothing) with max 50kg luggage.................................................85N/mm
Rider(up to 95kg, inc clothing) with light passenger and/or 15kg luggage..................90N/mm
Rider(up to 105kg, inc clothing) with passenger and/or 30kg luggage.........................95N/mm
 
My personal settings:

Big shout out to @Ktmmitch. His advice on a 90nm spring was spot on. Zero preload = 60mm sag, perfect! 

 

Rider ready to ride 90kg (198.8 lbs.). 

 

 

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"Men do not quit playing because they grow old, they grow old because they quit playing" Oliver Wendell Holmes - Mods - HDB handguards, Camel-ADV Gut guard, 1 finger clutch, The Fix pedal & Rally pipe, RR side/tail rack, RR 90nm spring & Headlight guard, Rally seat, OEM heated grips- stablemate Beta 520RS

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11 hours ago, Boyca said:

I truely am lost in this suspension game aren't I? Oh boy. Vastly different opinions and experiences, it seems like the only way is to go through that journey myself into figuring it out. Might become a costly one that way though.

So, if you've got a local Suspension Guy, it's a pretty easy road.  Go have a chat with them, and they can hook you up.

 

If you do not - if you, like me, have no "Suspension Guy" nearby who you can work with, it's a lot more difficult.  My experience (and it's limited, I'll admit) is that getting the appropriate springs for your weight isn't that hard - Racetech's calculator works well enough at telling you what spring rates you want, then it's pretty easy to order (from them or otherwise) drop in shock and fork springs.  From there, if you pull your forks/shock (very easy to do at home) you can have the springs swapped in any shop pretty cheaply.

 

But then you get to setting up your suspension in terms of preload, rebound, and compression, and while there's a bunch of good videos about them all, it's really an art, not a science.  If you don't have help, it can be a frustrating road.  Videos cover getting preload set, measuring static and rider sag, and a base-line "how to set rebound up" (basically, lower rebound until a compress/release of the suspension makes the bike bounce then increase it until returns quickly but doesn't bounce), then "adjust compression to taste".  

 

What's problematic is if you don't know what good feels like (and if you've never had a bike set up for you personally, you very likely don't), it's hard to put a lot of the more subjective things into context, and frankly nobody does a good job of explaining it.  

 

I know I don't have a Suspension Guy, and it's been a long and really, really irritating road for me, but I'm getting there.  I'm deeply jealous of people who've got someone nearby who can help get their bike set up for them, because without a doubt the difference between my bikes now (sprung and set up for me, but both with stock suspensions) and what they where when I bought them is miles apart.  With qualified professional help, it would have been so much faster and less annoying, but what are you gonna do?   Once you've got it set up, know how it should feel *for you* then future bikes will be so much easier to deal with. 

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On 6/13/2022 at 9:16 AM, Wintersdark said:

Now, though?  I'm a few clicks up harder on rebound, and several softer on compression fore and aft, and it's feeling so much better. 

I only realised today that the t7 comes with rebound dampening adjustment as well. I only ever noticed the preload adjustment. How do you figure out the balance between setting both?

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adv_og_logo.png

Here is a bit of info for you T7 owners. I will build on it as i do more. Spring rates. I have calculated these. They are very close to what a tuner...

Check here for the most comprehensive suspension information that I have found to date.  I installed a midvalve as well as re-tuning the shim stacks, which I have never done before!

My suspension is beautiful right now, start with the springs1

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6 hours ago, Boyca said:

I only realised today that the t7 comes with rebound dampening adjustment as well. I only ever noticed the preload adjustment. How do you figure out the balance between setting both?

Rebound as a starting point you compress and release the bike on the suspension, and you want it as soft as possible (far unscrewed as you can) *without* the suspension bouncing.  So, for the rear, push down hard on the back end and let go.  It should come back up as quickly as possible without any oscillation after.  Just up and stop.

 

Likewise with the forks, hold the front brake, compress and release.  They should pop back up and stop.

 

Compression then... Unscrew (clicks out) makes it softer, screw in makes it harder.  Softer let's the suspension eat irregularities in the road surface without transfering impacts to you, but too soft will make it wallow and bottom out easily.  Just have to mess with it till you get somewhere you like.  I recommend 2-3 clicks at a time being careful to not go too far - there's a fixed number of clicks out you can go to and going further can damage the mechanism.  The owners manual gives the default setting and max, so at first it's best to screw it all the way in counting clicks as you go to get to zero, then go back to where it was (so you know how many "clicks out" you are to start with.

 

You should do that first count with the rebound as well, I'll add.

 

Make sure both forks are set the same!!

 

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Alright, Ktech 85N and 6.6N springs on their way.   Still not sure why Ktech 85N says 240lb rider weight?  But with 175lb rider+Outbak crash bars, MX gear at the lightest loadout, and that +loaded Kreiga OS luggage, I figure I'll be somewhere right in that weight.

 

 

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Ktech 6.6N upgrade folks-  100mm air gap, 10wt oil?   Seen some wildly different recommendations...Since these are larger springs, factory level is out. I didnt see anything from Ktech directly. 

 

Also TT, RR both say 10wt, and they know more then i do.  Just confirming that's true with the spring upgrade as well.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/12/2022 at 10:34 PM, Bartek said:

@witgen Out of interest - what is your total weight and spring rates?

I found this swingarm progressiveness largerly overrated. Riding it back to back with other bikes wih PDS suspension i canot see any benefits. I think yamaha employ some marketing to cover up for rubbish quality stock shock 🙂 But that's just my opinion.

 

 

 

that must be why KTM use the linkage system on their Dakar Rallye bikes rather then the PDS the plebs get

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3 hours ago, Paul said:

 

that must be why KTM use the linkage system on their Dakar Rallye bikes rather then the PDS the plebs get

...and in motocross bikes... I'm not Mathhias Walkner or Toby Price to see the difference, but some of the "plebs" like Taddy Blazusiak or Johny Walker had good resulsts on EXC with PDS as well 🙂

 

Most important - i was reffering to Yamaha's use of undersprung shock with poor valving in connection with high angle rear swingarm and its overrated progressivness characteristic - i wasn't judging other linkage systems, especially KTM's (as usually -  they will be great 😜). Just the fact,  that Yamaha decided to save money thinking that swingarm will negate cost cutting on shock, and i couldn't see it myself.

Anyways - i don't have this problem anymore wih K-Tech kit.

Bike needed getting used to it, especially on tarmac as it became harder, but now i'm loving it.

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12 hours ago, Bartek said:

...and in motocross bikes... I'm not Mathhias Walkner or Toby Price to see the difference, but some of the "plebs" like Taddy Blazusiak or Johny Walker had good resulsts on EXC with PDS as well 🙂

 

Most important - i was reffering to Yamaha's use of undersprung shock with poor valving in connection with high angle rear swingarm and its overrated progressivness characteristic - i wasn't judging other linkage systems, especially KTM's (as usually -  they will be great 😜). Just the fact,  that Yamaha decided to save money thinking that swingarm will negate cost cutting on shock, and i couldn't see it myself.

Anyways - i don't have this problem anymore wih K-Tech kit.

Bike needed getting used to it, especially on tarmac as it became harder, but now i'm loving it.

Actually whst you said was

 

I found this swingarm progressiveness largerly overrated. Riding it back to back with other bikes wih PDS suspension i canot see any benefits. I think yamaha employ some marketing to cover up for rubbish quality stock shock 🙂 But that's just my opinion.”

 

 

is this your first bike you tuned the suspension on to suit you ? 

Edited by Paul
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