Bike technology - yay or nay??

[chadio]

So, it seems that the world is in love with technology in nearly every aspect of life.  Everything from telephones to refrigerators to cars / trucks /  suv's .... multi - color touch screens abound.

 

But what about motorcycles...  how much technology is enough, and how much is too much?   I am quite interested in hearing from members here.

 

Some moto - journalists seem to promote tech in terms of 'mode mania'  (riding modes, abs modes, traction control modes, custom - rider modes, etc.)  There are electronically adjustable suspensions, tft displays,  6 - axis IMU's, etc.  Then some also complain that the switchgear is cumbersome and the menu diving is too involved.

 

Not to mention KTM's demo mode,  where you get all of the custom features for the first 1200 miles or so, but then you have to pay a subscription fee afterward if you want to retain that level of 'feature tech'.

 

Very curious to hear if you, yes you,  think tech is improving or diluting the experience if riding a motorcycle?

 

[chadio]

Guess who, circa '96 - '97 - ish...

 

 

[Rider 101]

T7 is very minimalist in comparison to other brands in the market. That was a big attraction for me.

[AZJW]

I'm with @Rider 101, less tech on the T7 was a major draw for me as well.   Wizzbang stuff is great,  until it stops you in your tracks, then simple looks much more attractive. 

[SpankyPineapple]

I think it depends how manufacturers manage the tech. The systems need a failover mode that's clearly communicated to consumers. I realize manufacturers don't want to advertise things NOT working, but in the ADV/offroad world it's inevitable. When the selectable ABS fails, whats the fail condition? When the IMU fails, whats the fail condition? If selectable suspension goes wrong, what does it default to? If they made it to the point where pulling a fuse disables the system and the bike remains otherwise rideable, fine. We've all (most of us) accepted fuel injection, ECUs, digital dashboards, so we're not against tech and computers running the machine. They need to make it clear what on the bike still works when systems fail. At least then we can mitigate and be prepared. Riders also just need to learn that trailside fixes may require some electrical tape, bits of wire, a pocket meter, etc. 

[chadio]

Thanks for the replies.

 

How about 'quick shifters',   or  dual - clutch transmissions, or Rekluse clutches?  Hydraulic vs. cable manual clutches?

 

Lots of amazing things going on in the world of dual - sports and ADV bikes these days.  FWIW - I am madly in love with the T7 that I am still waiting for,  and also dig the new Kawasaki KLX 300 - elegant simplicity as well

 

 

 

[chadio]

51 minutes ago, SpankyPineapple said:

I think it depends how manufacturers manage the tech. The systems need a failover mode that's clearly communicated to consumers. I realize manufacturers don't want to advertise things NOT working, but in the ADV/offroad world it's inevitable......

Interesting food for thought,  reminds me of something that FortNine Ryan might say  ... 

[Wintersdark]

Broadly speaking, I love tech.  I feel in most cases, people get accustomed to a particular level of tech, and it becomes "this far, no further" which frankly is just a silly irrational mindset, even if I do understand it completely.

 

With that said, there are a couple caveats overall, and for adv bikes particularly:

 

Overall: 

* Tech needs to fail in such a way as to not disable the bike.  If your cruise control doesn't work, it should show an error *but not prevent operation*.  Even for safety equipment like lean sensitive abs - you can ride a bike just fine without that.  Throw a code, let the bike continue running.  You don't want more failure points that can leave you stranded.

* Tech must not be gated by bullshit subscriptions or DLC purchases.  That's the worst as whether they tell you or not, enabled or not, you pay for that tech when the bike is manufactured.  You just have to pay a second time to have it enabled.  What's more, the whole system to do that is a potential failure point in the future.  

* Tech costs, and while I can't think of any that's bad, I definitely can think of tech that's potentially not worth the cost - value determinations vary and are personal however.

 

ADV specific:

* Tech needs to be rugged and user-replacable.  ADV bikes get abused by design, things break, and you can't rely on dealer servicing. 

* The overall note above about failure handling is *crucial*.

* Cost and value determinations are more complex as you're buying a bike with the intent to abuse it.  My street bike, I want all the cool tech.  My adv bike, however?  I wanted the T7 specifically because it was simple and the most inexpensive option that wasn't dog slow and awful to ride (*cough* KLR *cough*).  I knew I'd crash it a lot, and can't afford expensive repairs.  Used CP2 parts are readily available and cheap, the bike itself is very simple and easy to Jerry rig, and it's cheap.

 

Honestly, that's my big takeaway on the BMW GS crowd.  Not "brave taking a 600+lb monstrosity out here" but "Jesus you're going to spend that much on a bike then crash it in this riverbed?". Though I respect if you're very well off and/or much more talented then me, that thinking is different.

 

Because I feel there are likely objectively better bikes out there IMHO.  The Taureg 660 and KTM 890A for example.  Both have more power and really nice adventure features and/or offroad prowess.  Both also cost a fair bit more, and are much more expensive to maintain and repair.  

 

All this to say:

 

The tech is flatly awesome (and only going to get better), but that doesn't mean it's always appropriate for a given use case or worth the added cost.

 

 

 

[Wintersdark]

Specifically:

 

Cruise Control: amazing, should be on any bike.  There's a kit for the T7, but it's nearly a grand, and... Nah.  I'll stick with my throttle lock.  But I miss my Tracers CC every time I get on my T7.

 

ABS: Critical safety equipment for road use - you can't outperform modern ABS (on road) and newer systems are developing good offroad modes.  Obv needs to be able to be disabled if you don't have a strong offroad abs however for gravel/sand/snow.

 

Lean sensitive ABS: Not really relevant for offroad, but a definitely valuable safety feature onroad that will either never affect you at all, or may save you from a crash.

 

Traction control: virtually necessary on modern, high powered bikes and literally saves lives, particularly for less experienced riders.  Like ABS, for adventure bikes you need specialized systems.  Can be turned off to play, so again, not a problem when you want to hoon around.

 

Quickshifter: They're great fun.  I honestly always thought they were stupid till getting my Tracer, at which point I discovered they're ridiculously fun.  Not for all the time, and more a toy than anything, but a fun, useful toy.  I'm considering seeing if I can import an R7 quickshifter, just because they're *fun*.

 

DCT: wonderful accessibility tech that helps disabled riders still enjoy the hobby, and also great for some people.  Not for me.  However, I don't gatekeep: I don't care if you can work a clutch/gears or not, ride your own ride.  If it gets new riders who otherwise wouldn't join in on two wheels then that's awesome.

 

Rekluse: This I'd do on my T7, but not my Tracer.  It would GREATLY ease slow, very technical terrain.  That's not a thing on road riding, though, so no value on the Tracer.

 

Fuel Injection: Carbs *suck*.  "But I can fix my carbs!" ... I've NEVER had a motorcycle fuel injection system fail, though I concede a fuel pump may go, replacing that is trivial. I've spent literally hundreds of hours rebuilding carbs.  Never again.  Also, it's nice to handle altitude changes without hassle.

 

[chadio]

37 minutes ago, Wintersdark said:

 

 

....Fuel Injection: Carbs *suck*.  "But I can fix my carbs!" ... I've NEVER had a motorcycle fuel injection system fail, though I concede a fuel pump may go, replacing that is trivial. I've spent literally hundreds of hours rebuilding carbs.  Never again.  Also, it's nice to handle altitude changes without hassle.

 

Wow, thanks for putting it all under the microscope!

 

re: carbs...  

 

In years of snowmobiles, trials bikes, dirtbikes, atvs, and streetbikes,  have had to become intimately familiar with the Mikuni round slide and flat slide....  cleaning, tuning, and parts replacement.  Had just enough challenge to enjoy the learning process.  However,  there is low probability that I will once again own something with a carb.   The benefit of EFI with instant starts - hot, cold, or in between, not to mention altitude,  is noteworthy....  yet, there are some (including me) that appreciate the predictable smoothness of on / steady / off throttle with a carb.  Generally speaking,  in my experience.  Who needs more experience?   Me  [c: 

[georgeinabz]

Stuff it , I have £65 Bluetooth headset and that's it , just bought a Tenere 700 because of it simplicity, no amount of tech can substitute the smells of forests , fields, and the salty sea  while riding along .

[chadio]

For on- road or off, KTM is amazing in new model  reviews and on paper.  Had the opportunity to ride a KTM 300 smoker woods bike years ago,  it (presumably) built on the KDX200 Kawi ethos and elevated the whole thing.  Sweet piece, blew my doors off (far exceeded my  capability) with the wow factor.

 

Is today's KTM pushing the performance envelope so hard that they are sacrificing reliability?  One might wonder with the number of them for sale.

 

Keep in mind that some buy a new bike every 1 or 2 or 3 years, sometimes modern moto - journalism turns over bikes because people want new content, yet some real world consumers want a bike that will provide owner satisfaction for 5 or 10 years plus.  I remember seeing the original KTM Duke at a local dealer - and how cool it was.  Ended up with my '96 Ducati Monster (which I miss very much)  because it had legacy and sounded  so much better than a thumper.  

 

 

[Stevoh]

The simplicity of the T7 was something that drew me to it, did I really need all that other stuff the BMW/TRIUMPH/KTM had, well no, there was certainly a Dollar figure involved as well, if they were all the same price.......?

To be honest now after owning a T7 for two or so years a couple of extra tech gadgets would be a good thing, if you could choose one or two things, what would it be, ABS switch on the go would be great, not much to ask for really.

Speaking of Dollar figures and tech, the new CF Moto MT 800 comes standard with, heated grips, heated seat, TFT display, Bluetooth connectivity,quick shifter, steering damper, tubeless,  under $15k AU, might need to be fact checked but it's been said that it's no.3 in adventure bike sales already, and before you shoot me down for mentioning a Chinese product, I know I know! As Hogan mentioned things change and what was thought of as new tech inclusion soon becomes the standard, I actually got to ride one, wow, not sure what I was expecting but I was kind of impressed, and no I wouldn't buy one, I'm very happy with the bike I've got. the new Ducati Desert X is $24k AU with stacks of tech if you want that sort of thing,a new T7 in Australia is pushing $20k a few simple bolt ons and your at $23 K with no extra"tech" I'm wondering if Yamaha may rethink and go for more tech as standard sooner rather than later??  I hope not.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Stevoh

[PNGL]

Considering that most of the things that reportedly go wrong with the KTM ADV bikes is the technology, the lack thereof was a major selling point for me with the T7. In fact the "tech" and it's issues on the KTMs is the only reason I have a T7 and not an 890. It was a toss up for a month or so, but I kept seeing so many people talking about having their Super Adventures of all sizes in the shop repeatedly. I could afford to buy a new bike. I can not afford to then continually fix that bike. My Tenere hasn't had a single issue yet. 
Also doesn't hurt that Yamaha has been rated the most reliable motorcycle brand for a while now. 
Bear in mind when reading this, I'm a nerd. I love technology and gadgetry of all sorts. I'd love to have all of that electronic wizardry and I'd enjoy messing with it and tweaking things with no end. I just can't afford to have it going wrong all the time and absolutely do NOT have the patience for breaking down in the woods in the middle of the Appalachian Mountains.

Edited October 10, 2022 by PNGL

[Simmons1]

I have a buddy with an 890. He is an ex racer so he loves the performance. He has had a bunch of electrical issues with his bike in the first few thousand miles.  He took it in for some warranty work on one of the issues.  For some reason the warranty was denied.  The KTM 30 feet from the dealer or 30 minutes which ever comes first warranty seemed to apply. What ever they did he was charged $700.

 

He claims if the World Raid comes to the US the KTM is gone. I warned him he would love the reliability but possibly not the performance of the T7 compared to his 890.

[Dougie]

While I do like being able to hear a song, search it, download it then play it on a car stereo within seconds, that’s about it for me. Medical advances, great. Real safety, fine. Bike tech can $%&^ off. I like the new Africa twins too, and GS are ok for big miles, but manufacturers should offer tech free variants in the line up. An Africa twin is worth less than 10k£ without the computers and screens. Injection is great, especially for tuning and fuel economy. Carbs work great too, and easier to repair. It’s just a lot of people mess with them without any knowledge so think they’re crap. I still get 60mpg from a 1vj. It’s not about being macho, it’s just sometimes, there’s a need for invention. A lot of the time nowadays, it’s a gimmick. Turn your lights on with your voice, great if you are disabled or infirm, if you’re not, stop being a lazy bastard and get off your arse to reach the switch. Human body. Use it or lose it. And as for being “connected”, el*n m*sk and all his cronies can do one too. Just a big personal data grab. I’m moving to an island.
maybe that last coffee was a bit strong. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Dougie

[Hibobb]

If I could only keep one bike, my 2002 XR400R would stay.

Carb, Kick start, Valves you can adjust with a screwdriver and wrench....

 

Oooo, I don't fear technology.... I was very happy with getting rid of points and condensers

[Ray Ride4life]

I love technology but it has to have a purpose and the crap on bikes these days is only because everybody wants everything and manufactures are very happily selling you all that Shet. More Shet is more money out of our pockets and into fat pockets of big fat CEO's.
I love the T7 for not having a bible size manual to be able to dial in all parameters for managing the track. When you're done i'm already on the next track.
At work the same, million euro machines but a couple of times a year i have to save the day with some basic tools and common sense.

[Rider 101]

9 hours ago, Hibobb said:

If I could only keep one bike, my 2002 XR400R would stay.

Carb, Kick start, Valves you can adjust with a screwdriver and wrench....

 

Oooo, I don't fear technology.... I was very happy with getting rid of points and condensers

How good would it have been if Honda had done a bit of an upgrade on suspension and added a button. They had the 400 electric start in on of their quads.

[Simmons1]

59 minutes ago, Rider 101 said:

How good would it have been if Honda had done a bit of an upgrade on suspension and added a button. They had the 400 electric start in on of their quads.

 

Like this:

 

For sale - 2000 Honda XR400R (Electric Start) $5000 - See YT Vid | Adventure Rider

---

Will regret it if it sells but up for sale is my CA Street Legal 00' Honda XR400 currently in Supermoto format. I haven’t ridden this in almost 6mo so...

 

[Hibobb]

@Rider 101yes, Those two item would be welcome. That said, it is still a fine bike as is. It was marketed as a trail bike, not their "CR" MX line, so I can't really bitch too much about the suspension. Sprung correctly it has served me well. Kick starting is no problem 98% of the time, but a flooded 4-stroke, lying upside down on the side of a greasy hill, when it is hot and humid out, and you are dead tired.... ya, an electric start would be nice.

 

The "other" time electric start would be nice is:

Riding single tracks with my buddies, when stopping to regroup, I am usually last to show up (I am 64 and cautious). They have great joy waiting for me to turn my bike off, then they all hit their sissy button and take off, leaving me to kick.... Bastards!!

Edited October 11, 2022 by Hibobb

[PNGL]

11 hours ago, Hibobb said:

@Rider 101yes, Those two item would be welcome. That said, it is still a fine bike as is. It was marketed as a trail bike, not their "CR" MX line, so I can't really bitch too much about the suspension. Sprung correctly it has served me well. Kick starting is no problem 98% of the time, but a flooded 4-stroke, lying upside down on the side of a greasy hill, when it is hot and humid out, and you are dead tired.... ya, an electric start would be nice.

 

The "other" time electric start would be nice is:

Riding single tracks with my buddies, when stopping to regroup, I am usually last to show up (I am 64 and cautious). They have great joy waiting for me to turn my bike off, then they all hit their sissy button and take off, leaving me to kick.... Bastards!!

My brother used to do that to me too. I was on my built monster of a XL600R and he was on his little DRZ400.  His couldn't touch my ~60HP, but his whole starting procedure was just to press a button. 

[chadio]

 

[Wintersdark]

This makes me objectively angry.  Particularly how many people come out "Oh, but it lets you save money if you don't want those features" which is frankly stupid.  You're paying for those features no matter what, because there is cost in including them in the bike.  You're only paying for them once though, instead of twice... and that means if you ARE buying the features, you're paying way, way more than what they're worth.

 

That said, I'm *REALLY* hoping people jailbreak these and enable all the features for free.  Obviously that'll end the warranty, but unless you're paying for an extended warranty it's not a huge deal to wait till the end of the first year to do that.  The reality is that you're inevitably going to run into issues over time where servers are shut down, used bikes end up crippled, etc - you see this in software scenarios all the time.  

 

At least it's not BMW and subscription models, though.  Good lord. 

[Redbikejohn]

Also love the T700 tenere for lack of tech. I'd go so far as to say even abs on it is too much.  Had it release a couple of times when I was still in control.  OK I am an ex racer so maybe its good for inexperienced riders.

Had a honda 750 thingy as a hire bike last year when 660z was written off.  It didn't have enough oomph to get into trouble but had a host of traction control modes  - complete waste of money. 

I imagine a 1000 sports bike might benefit from traction but even then I'm still sceptical.