Lowering links & Raising fork tubes

[Black99S]

Simple question.

What's the recommended amount to raise the forks to balance the bike after installing Camel ADV 20mm lowering links.

I can raise the forks ~15mm before I run out of flat calming area, so that's what I did.

Stock, the tubes extend 10mm above the top clamp.

[Mapbook]

Had 20mm lower links on for about nine months now have not lowered the fork legs cannot feel any difference in handling, try the bike with the forks at standard setting first before you adjust anything. 

[williestreet]

If you want t o keep the bike level and the stance the same as stock, lowering the rear 20mm requires lowering the front the same amount. 

The clamping area is the limiting factor on our forks though.  

Also the fork caps will touch the tank cover when turning full left or right if you drop them too much. so have a look at them and make sure they clear. I am pretty sure there is no issue unless you go beyond the camping area you are using.

 

I would run it exactly as you have done.

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by williestreet

[jdub53]

Rally Raid says this about installation of their 20mm lowering links (halfway down the page in red font): We recommend sliding the forks through the triple clamps by 10mm to compensate for lowering the rear of the bike.

 

 

Yamaha T7 Lowering Links 20mm-RRP 637

 

[williestreet]

I don't really care what Yamaha or rally raid says on their site.

 

Lowering the seat 20mm and only dropping the front 10mm equals a front end 10mm higher than the rear.  If you want to get real anal about it the forks are on an angle so to get 20mm drop in the front you would need to drop about 22.5mm.

 

I am open to an explanation with some real numbers to support your theory. But the thought that it must be correct  just because someone says so, or I dropped mine 10mm and it feels good to me is not proof.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by williestreet

[DT675]

I'm betting  it has to do with the difference in leverage ratio at the rear end vs just a straight drop at the front end.  Putting in lowering links changes the leverage ratio.

[Windblown]

It is a bit of a quandary. I haven't heard an explanation that makes complete sense to me, yet raising the forks (dropping the front) 1/2 to 2/3 the distance of what the rear was changed is a rule of thumb found on other bikes as well in some circles. 

 

What's odd is that I've NEVER heard this rule applied when raising bikes with longer suspensions. Plus some highly regarded suspension tuners say the 1/2 - 2/3 lowering guideline is pure bunk and has more to do with limitations in how far a fork can be raised in the triples versus lowering it properly with an internal spacer in the fork.  

 

If the rule of thumb has a solid basis in engineering (which totally escapes me, but I'm not an engineer)  I'm sure someone could explain it. Given that the rule doesn't seem to apply when raising bikes I'm inclined to believe it's more of a work around for other issues that might crop up. 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Windblown

[Zero600]

12 hours ago, Black99S said:

Simple question.

What's the recommended amount to raise the forks to balance the bike after installing Camel ADV 20mm lowering links.

I can raise the forks ~15mm before I run out of flat calming area, so that's what I did.

Stock, the tubes extend 10mm above the top clamp.

I started with the 50% rule, and played with it from there until I was happy. It’s fairly easy to experiment, so you can arrive at your own answer. I would not exceed the textured area on the fork tubes, but otherwise just make it work for you.

 

[Zero600]

PS be sure to dial in rear preload. That, too, affects the stance.

[TexasT700]

Not direct answer, but maybe relevant. I did kouba 20 mm drop links. Replaced shock spring with one more appropriate to my 225 nekkid weight, plus top box, etc. I found that the lowering links affect sag settings significantly.  Even with 95nm spring, it took a lot of preload to get sag even close to 30 to 33%, with links installed. I ended up putting factory links back on, which enabled decent sag without major preload. It also brought a nice compliant ride. With Sargent seat, 32 inch inseam, I can flat foot by reaching a bit.

I am picturing engineers working at computer figuring out all the suspension dimensions. It is not an accident that the factory setup is about as good as it gets, with spring for ur weight. I get that the bike is too tall. My solution is to trade for ktm adv 890, non R. So, will be selling T7, sadly. Sorry that Yamaha did a few improves to EU bikes, but USA does not get them.

The front forks, I lowered front as much as I could and keep clamps in strong area, maybe about 3/8 inch.

Good luck! I was ok for about a year with lower links, but just wanted better compliance.

[Endopotential]

I don't think there's any hard and fast formula, there's only a bell curve around "acceptable handling geometry."  Even without changing rear suspension height, I know that in the street bike racing world riders play with front fork height to change how fast a bike turns in vs overall stability.  So all the above choices are probably right.

 

We're all built differently - different weights, torso lengths, arm lengths, upper body strength for turning the bar, riding style, etc.  So to say that there's only one fixed way to do anything is a bit daft in my book.

[Black99S]

42 minutes ago, Endopotential said:

I don't think there's any hard and fast formula, there's only a bell curve around "acceptable handling geometry."  Even without changing rear suspension height, I know that in the street bike racing world riders play with front fork height to change how fast a bike turns in vs overall stability.  So all the above choices are probably right.

 

We're all built differently - different weights, torso lengths, arm lengths, upper body strength for turning the bar, riding style, etc.  So to say that there's only one fixed way to do anything is a bit daft in my book.

I've seen the 'raise the forks 50% of the rear linkage drop' referenced a few times, but my Engineering brain says for the bike to handle as designed, the front should be lowered to match the rear. I agree, no fast / hard formula but I want to get it in the acceptable geometry zone first.

 

I've done a couple of clinics with Chris Birch and watched his videos. Once suspension SAG is properly set, then Enduro riders will adjust fork tube position depending on the terrain. Raise the tubes 2-4mm for quicker steering in tight woods conditions and lower the tubes 2-4mm for more stable steering in sand. KTM makes it easy to do this with scored markings on the fork tubes.

 

I've done suspension work on previous bikes - DR650 and Africa Twin - Springs to get proper SAG and valving for better control, but this is the first bike I've lowered. Many heavier riders will never change a spring (excessive rear SAG) and others will never adjust fork tubes after installing lowering links - both can ride happy on a stable chopper-esque bike. Others will raise the fork tubes for a bit of lowering and to get quicker steering with the 21" front wheel.

 

For reference - I'm 169cm (5'6") with 81cm (32") inseam and weigh 67kg (148lb).  The T7 fits me and the suspension is sprung well for my weight, It's just a bit too tall for comfort when riding double track in the woods or rough washed out forest service roads.  

[Black99S]

2 hours ago, Zero600 said:

PS be sure to dial in rear preload. That, too, affects the stance.

Agree. getting proper SAG is the first step in suspension set-up.

[Black99S]

7 hours ago, DuncMan said:

Nope. Yamaha have their own 20mm lowering links and their own literature says half the drop for the forks to maintain the same riding geometry. 

I've searched everywhere and cannot find installation Yamaha instructions for their lowering links. I bought mine from Camel ADV.

If you have a pic or link to the Yamaha instructions it would help.

[Toppie]

This has been discussed previously.

 

 

After quite a bit of discussion, I fitted 20mm Rally Raid Drop Links  to my 2022 model.

I raised the forks so that they're exactly 20mm from the top of the fork leg to the yolk.

The stance of the bike looks 'right' and there's no discernible change to the handling.

 

 

 

[Black99S]

6 hours ago, Toppie said:

This has been discussed previously.

 

 

After quite a bit of discussion, I fitted 20mm Rally Raid Drop Links  to my 2022 model.

I raised the forks so that they're exactly 20mm from the top of the fork leg to the yolk.

The stance of the bike looks 'right' and there's no discernible change to the handling.

 

 

 

 Thanks for the link.  I’ll try 20mm instead of the 25 I have now and see if I can feel any difference.

 

 I didn’t follow the link originally because of the chain tension reference. Chain tension has no relationship to lowering links, it related to geometry.  Countershaft, swing arm pivot and rear axle on the same plane is the tightest chain tension point.
 

On a bike jack I drop the links and strap up the rear wheel until I get them in plane then adjust chain tension for a wee bit of slack. Then with everything back together on the lift or centre stand I find a reference point - end of lower chain slider - and find pushing chain up it just touches. Forever after that is my quick check and adjustment reference.

[Nopper]

Was reading through this topic and want to add some info on balancing front and rear :

ever compared several types and brands of tyres? There can be a difference in height of numbers up to an inch. 
Add difference in tyre wear rear/font to the equation. 
get the picture…

I have tractive cartridges +25mm and a fatty front tyre. Didn’t raise the forks so my front came it about 35mm. Bike is stable and handles great. Worth the experiment.

[Chev.]

On 1/28/2023 at 7:11 AM, Mapbook said:

Had 20mm lower links on for about nine months now have not lowered the fork legs cannot feel any difference in handling, try the bike with the forks at standard setting first before you adjust anything. 

Same here Lowered the bike 20 mill, and I won't raise the forks. Improved the handling for me.

[mcbrien]

I added 20.0mm lowering links and dropped forks 10.0mm and I thought it took more effort to get bike to turn. 

I then dropped forks to 21.5 mm from top of cap (same way your measuring) and it goes through turns like it's on rails!

[random1781]

Tinkering with the fork height is helpful even if you have no other changes to the suspension, depending on what you're trying to do. Dropping the forks down to lighten the front helps a lot in sand.