Do I have an oil pressure problem?

[ducaticowboy]

Or am I just paranoid?

 

I have about 30 degree inclined driveway.

 

One day after a ride I notice the red oil pressure light go on as I go up it. Had never seen it before, so I check engine oil sight glass, and is low. However, it still looks pretty clean through the sight glass.

 

I remember that I’m about 400 miles over my oil change due date, and it has been ridden hard in very dusty / dirty conditions, so i figured this was the cause.

 

I changed the oil with Valvoline 4-Stroke Motorcycle Full Synthetic SAE 10W-40 (bike came stock with non synthetic), fill her to the “max” line in the sight glass, but I swap the OEM filter for a K&N oil filter. I also changed the air filter to an oiled uni filter instead of OEM to prep for a dusty trip.

 

3 days later I did a 3 day off road trip in west Texas, where it was cold at night but 90+ degrees in the day. Each day it was ridden hard on on moderate difficulty dirt / rocks / gravel with a lot of dust and a few obligatory falls.

 

After bringing the bike back via a 9 hour trailer ride in the Texas sun, I immediately unloaded it as I parked at home, started it, rode up the block to turn around, and went up my inclined driveway.

 

I see the oil pressure light come on again and smell something burning. I immediately shut off the bike, check the sight glass, and it looks nearly empty.

 

No visible leaks or damage anywhere on bike or oil stains on trailer or skid plate. I figure either the oil wasn’t back to the sight glass yet after the 60 seconds of running, or she’s burning oil.

 

I come back the next morning when the engine is cold and the sight glass is full back to the level I filled it to, however, the oil is very dark, much darker than the OEM non synthetic oil. 

 

Is this cause for concern / do I have a problem? My primary concerns are the oil light coming on, the blackness of the oil, and that slight burning smell I smelled. 

 

I’m thinking the likelihood of this reliable engine doing something weird like burning oil or allowing too much blow by of the pistons is low. My plan is to change the oil again (this time with Motul 10w-40 full synthetic), swap the K&N filter back to OEM, and keep an eye on it.

 

Should I be concerned about the oil light / burning smell? Or does anyone know why the stock oil would be clearer after 4k miles than the new full synthetic is after 300 miles?

 

I’ve seen people on the MT-07 forums say their oil pressure lights are also sensitive on inclined driveways, but I had never seen that light come on once before even on much steeper inclines off road. 

 

Would the fact that the bike was cold and I started and immediately rode it up my driveway contribute to the light coming on and the sight glass appearing empty at first after a 30 second ride and then straight up my inclined driveway?

 

I might just be paranoid but what would you do to be sure? 
 

EDIT: To clarify, I didn’t start the bike on the incline. I started it on flat ground, rode it for 30 seconds, and then went up the driveway quickly in first gear.

Edited March 12, 2023 by ducaticowboy
Clarification

[AZJW]

First off, a 30° incline seems to me to be an extreme angle to be starting a cold engine, but that's probably just me.  I would think the reason you're getting an engine oil light is due to oil not yet circulating throughout the engine.  My guess is it won't repeat if you start and warm the engine on level ground and get it nearer to operating temperature before placing it on that steep of a slope.

 

You don't state how many miles total are on your T7, but most of us run Mineral ( non-synthetic) oil until at least 1,000 miles to complete the break-in process.  There are wildly varying opinions about how long the break-in period should be and the type of oil that should be used, but if it's still under warranty,  it's a safe bet to follow the manufacturer guidance so if you do have a warranty issue, they can't argue ( as much) about the type oil or filter you had used.

[Hibobb]

38 minutes ago, ducaticowboy said:

Or am I just paranoid

Yes

[BikeBrother]

Oil color looks ok to me.

[Ray Ride4life]

Colour looks fine to me too, it gets darker when used. Never start a cold bike on an inclimb of on the sidestand because all the oil in the sump goes to one side and best is also not to heat it up while idling. 5 to 10 seconds for the oil to start moving and then keeping the rpm's low the first 10 km and not going full out until it's it's fully at operating temperature and that's not when the water reaches 78C because oil and engine parts take longer to get there. I take 20km as a reasonable safe distance.
A cold start is just as damaging as 800km with a hot engine.

[ducaticowboy]

1 hour ago, AZJW said:

First off, a 30° incline seems to me to be an extreme angle to be starting a cold engine, but that's probably just me.  I would think the reason you're getting an engine oil light is due to oil not yet circulating throughout the engine.  My guess is it won't repeat if you start and warm the engine on level ground and get it nearer to operating temperature before placing it on that steep of a slope.

 

You don't state how many miles total are on your T7, but most of us run Mineral ( non-synthetic) oil until at least 1,000 miles to complete the break-in process.  There are wildly varying opinions about how long the break-in period should be and the type of oil that should be used, but if it's still under warranty,  it's a safe bet to follow the manufacturer guidance so if you do have a warranty issue, they can't argue ( as much) about the type oil or filter you had used.

You’re right, I forgot to mention. It has 5.2k miles. 

[ducaticowboy]

To clarify, I didn’t start the bike on the incline. I started it on flat ground, rode it for 30 seconds, and then went up the driveway quickly in first gear.

[BikeBrother]

The T700 has a wet sump oil system. The oil is collected in the sump pan. On steep climb oil can go into back of the sump, resulting in low oilpressure. Same if you would do looooong wheelies. 

A dry sump system has an extra oil pump to minimize this.

 

[SO_Rider]

20 hours ago, Ray Ride4life said:

Colour looks fine to me too, it gets darker when used. Never start a cold bike on an inclimb of on the sidestand because all the oil in the sump goes to one side and best is also not to heat it up while idling. 5 to 10 seconds for the oil to start moving and then keeping the rpm's low the first 10 km and not going full out until it's it's fully at operating temperature and that's not when the water reaches 78C because oil and engine parts take longer to get there. I take 20km as a reasonable safe distance.
A cold start is just as damaging as 800km with a hot engine.

Do I understand correctly that you're suggesting not to start the bike while on the sidestand? I've never heard this. 

[Windblown]

47 minutes ago, SO_Rider said:

Do I understand correctly that you're suggesting not to start the bike while on the sidestand? I've never heard this. 

 

That's what it sounded like. Perhaps a typo as a result of a change in thought mid-stream while typing?  

 

Regardless, you haven't heard it before because no one subscribes to that theory. Been around bikes for a long time and never heard any warnings about starting one on a sidestand.  I've personally got something over 200k (us) miles on motorcycles and have yet to start one on a center stand as far as I can recall.  

 

  

[Ray Ride4life]

50 minutes ago, SO_Rider said:

Do I understand correctly that you're suggesting not to start the bike while on the sidestand? I've never heard this. 

It's not a suggestion but a hard advice.

When the bike is on the sidestand the level in the sump on the right side will be too low to get everything lubricated properly.

After a short stop on a ride it's not a problem but cold starts can cause damage in the long term.

[SO_Rider]

7 minutes ago, Ray Ride4life said:

It's not a suggestion but a hard advice.

When the bike is on the sidestand the level in the sump on the right side will be too low to get everything lubricated properly.

After a short stop on a ride it's not a problem but cold starts can cause damage in the long term.

I don't have my owner's manual handy, but I don't recall seeing this recommendation... 

[AZJW]

18 minutes ago, Ray Ride4life said:

It's not a suggestion but a hard advice.

When the bike is on the sidestand the level in the sump on the right side will be too low to get everything lubricated properly.

After a short stop on a ride it's not a problem but cold starts can cause damage in the long term.

Since you state it's "hard advice" and seeing as discussions often help educate the reader(s), please post up your source material to support this stance. Not being flippant here,  seriously,  like @Windblown, I've never seen/ heard this admonition before, but always willing to learn new ways of doing things.

[Windblown]

9 minutes ago, SO_Rider said:

I don't have my owner's manual handy, but I don't recall seeing this recommendation... 

 

You don't recall it because it's not in there.  What percentage of bikes comes standard with a centerstand?  I rest my case.

[Lewie]

I have heard this advice too - not to leave the bike warming up while on the side stand 

[BikeBrother]

I agree with @Windblown , @AZJW and @SO_Rider.

 The owners manual says in the oil change chapter, put the bike on levelled ground, start engine, let it run for several minutes....

The picture shows with sidestand out! This is what i do for 40 years and never had any problems with oil lights.

[Windblown]

9 minutes ago, Lewie said:

I have heard this advice too - not to leave the bike warming up while on the side stand 

 

Sumps are intentionally placed low to help ensure there is oil availible to pump thru the system. If someone can explain too me how a pressurized oiling system is compromised by the sump sitting perhaps 1" lower when the bike is on the side stand I'm all ears. One could argue that the splash portions of the system could be compromised when the bike is sitting at an angle, however that would remain true at all times regardless of oil or engine temps. 

 

I actually do vaguely recall hearing the suggestion at some point in time in the past. And like most tall tales it likely had some root in truth, for a particular motor but not for motorcycle engines as a whole. 

 

This reminds me of the story of the woman who always cut 2" off the ham before baking it.  Her husband wondered about it and asked his wife about it one night.  She responded "It's how it's done if you want the ham to turn out right.  My mother taught me this method when I was growing up."   Still curious the husband asked his wifes mother the next time they visited.  The old lady replied "Heavens we stopped doing that years ago when we bought a bigger oven."

 

Point being - there may have been a reason to at some point but if there was the reason  died with the history that spawned it. 

[Ray Ride4life]

18 minutes ago, Lewie said:

I have heard this advice too - not to leave the bike warming up while on the side stand 

Correct too.

The engine is developt for a certain use and thats riding. All heat management is based on the airflow around the engine. A light load and airflow gives a more even heat build up.

The oil is plain logic. It's a wet sump engine, that means the crankshaft slings the oil around but when the bike is on the sidestand there is not enough oil on the right side due to the angle so the right side is deprived from oil and therefore lubrication.

 

[Ray Ride4life]

3 minutes ago, Windblown said:

however that would remain true at all times regardless of oil or engine temps

When de engine is hot it means it has run already and the oil has circulated and therefore less important.

 

[Windblown]

 

21 minutes ago, Ray Ride4life said:

Correct too.

The engine is developt for a certain use and thats riding. All heat management is based on the airflow around the engine. A light load and airflow gives a more even heat build up.

The oil is plain logic. It's a wet sump engine, that means the crankshaft slings the oil around but when the bike is on the sidestand there is not enough oil on the right side due to the angle so the right side is deprived from oil and therefore lubrication.

 

 

Heat management has not been based on airflow around the engine since they became water cooled.  What bearings in the engine rely on splash lubrication rather than the pressurized oiling system?  Only ones that comes to mind are the upper con rod/wrist pin bearings and oil gets provided to them in different ways on different motors. And beside, they under very little load when the engine is sitting on the sidestand. 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by Windblown

[Endopotential]

1 hour ago, Ray Ride4life said:

It's not a suggestion but a hard advice.

When the bike is on the sidestand the level in the sump on the right side will be too low to get everything lubricated properly.

After a short stop on a ride it's not a problem but cold starts can cause damage in the long term.

 

So you're saying that for the 98% (or whatever) of motorcycles out there that don't have a centerstand, that your recommendation is that we should all position the motorcycle perfectly vertical before starting it, and patiently holding it manually in that position for 5 min for the engine and oil to warm up before riding it?  That makes no practical sense at all.  If the sidestand thing were a significant issue, then there should be millions of dead motorcycle engines at the side of the road around the world.

 

There's a difference between theoretical ideal and whether it makes any true difference in reality.  I mean, theoretically we should put our bikes up on a rotisserie to keep all pressure off the tires when we're not riding, and then rotate the entire bike upside down a couple times to make sure it's really well lubricated before starting.

 

I'm pretty darn sure that motorcycle engineers have taken this into consideration in the last century.  The pickup tube should be well submerged in oil even if the bike is tilted on its sidestand.  It would only be an issue if your bike is critically low on oil during a cold start.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Endopotential

[Ray Ride4life]

A guy from the VFR club had a bike that became a little hotter than normal and he took the fairing off thinking he got more wind.

The bike didn't got cooler but even hotter.

That bike used forced air to have the coolers work properly.

It may not be the flow around that does the main part but water needs air to cool and the radiator is placed to scoop up air while riding. The VFR has 2 on the sides and that's why it uses forced air through the fairing.

[Ray Ride4life]

3 minutes ago, Endopotential said:

waiting 5 min

I said 5 to 10 seconds. So not starting the bike and then getting geared up.

But i gave my advice and explained why. You're all adults so do with it what you want.

I always did it this way and keep doing it. I ride my bikes over 100k km and never had a engine failure or oil consumption, even not with the bikes that where known for using oil.