Yamaha's break-in oil sucks (?)

[Endopotential]

As a sign that I really haven't been riding my T7 enough, it's taken me 5 months to put on 5oo miles.  

I love the bike but on downshifts I would often have to mash the shift lever to get it in gear.  I just did the first oil change with some Honda 10w30 oil cuz it was cheap on Amazon.

The OEM oil came out a bit brown, but not sludgy and no metal dust I could see.

 

The shifting is instantly better!  The T7 shifts like a normal motorcycle now thankfully.

Has anyone else noticed this difference?

[Mapbook]

The clue is in the title, it's going to run rough because it allows all the components to bed them selves in for 500 miles then change for 10W40 semi syn as per Yamaha recommendation it will be fine.  

[Tenerider]

Slightly too high oil levels also seam to increase downshift problems.

[Endopotential]

Just to geek out a bit more on engineering, can anyone explain what forces are different within the transmission between upshifting and downshifting?  The dogs are just sliding from one gear to another, does it really matter which direction they go?

 

[Alan M]

44 minutes ago, Endopotential said:

Just to geek out a bit more on engineering, can anyone explain what forces are different within the transmission between upshifting and downshifting?  The dogs are just sliding from one gear to another, does it really matter which direction they go?

 

To get a clean gear change on a dog engagement gearbox you basically only need to unload the dog teeth during the shift process.

 

On upshifts, especially at higher rpm, closing the throttle with the reverse torque is enough to unload the dogs and allow you to shift gear. You can also use the clutch but it’s not really necessary. On downshifts you don’t get the same amount of unloading of the dogs when you shut the throttle so the clutch is normally needed unless you stamp on the pedal.

 

The most important thing with the change is to be firm and fast, half hearted slow shifts is what damages the dog teeth.

[Wintersdark]

3 hours ago, Alan M said:

 

On upshifts, especially at higher rpm, closing the throttle with the reverse torque is enough to unload the dogs and allow you to shift gear. You can also use the clutch but it’s not really necessary. On downshifts you don’t get the same amount of unloading of the dogs when you shut the throttle so the clutch is normally needed unless you stamp on the pedal.

On downshifts, you just blip the throttle a bit.  The rev up puts forward torque on the dogs, then they go through and unloaded period, then there's reverse torque as the engine braking starts anew.  To do it as smoothly as possible, pay attention to the rpm change when you downshift.  Whatever amount it's increasing by is about how much you want to blip the throttle.  That way you blip the throttle, and when the transmission unloads at the end of the blip it's also at roughly the rpm you want to be at for the next gear down.  

 

Getting good at this technique will allow you to downshift into corners better without disrupting the bike's suspension.

 

You can very easily ride a T7 around shifting clutchlessly for every shift, up or down, and only using the clutch when you come to a stop.  It's worth practicing even if you don't care to do it just to have a better understanding of what's going on in the transmission.  And incase you ever have to ride with a broken clutch cable/lever.

[Tenerider]

Just curious guys, what do you recommend to get smoother engagement of 1st after starting the bike in neutral?

[Alan M]

8 minutes ago, Tenerider said:

Just curious guys, what do you recommend to get smoother engagement of 1st after starting the bike in neutral?

I normally just use 2nd most of the time especially on road for pulling away with a bit of clutch. You could try shifting to 2nd then 1st and see if it helps that initial jerk.

[Mapbook]

Work the clutch lever a couple of times before you start, i find it gives a slightly better engagement, or you could try in 1st before you start then pull the clutch lever in to start.

But you won't eliminate that 1st time 1st gear clatter. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Mapbook

[Windblown]

15 minutes ago, Tenerider said:

Just curious guys, what do you recommend to get smoother engagement of 1st after starting the bike in neutral?

 

Are you speaking of when you first snick it into first gear with the clutch pulled after starting the bike or when you first let the clutch out while in first gear?  

 

Sometimes clutch plates stick a bit which can cause a small "jump" when dropped into gear for the first time after a cold start. 

[Tenerider]

13 minutes ago, Windblown said:

 

Are you speaking of when you first snick it into first gear with the clutch pulled after starting the bike or when you first let the clutch out while in first gear?  

 

Sometimes clutch plates stick a bit which can cause a small "jump" when dropped into gear for the first time after a cold start. 

The first one, putting it in 1st after starting the cold bike in neutral.

You all know this pronounced klunk too well I guess. It even occurs sometimes with a running engine at stoplights. That's why I keep it in 1st most of the time at red lights.

 

Will try the clutch lever pulling! Engaging 1st before the bike is actually started definitely helps, already found that out.

 

Thanks guys!

[Windblown]

29 minutes ago, Tenerider said:

The first one, putting it in 1st after starting the cold bike in neutral.

You all know this pronounced klunk too well I guess. It even occurs sometimes with a running engine at stoplights. That's why I keep it in 1st most of the time at red lights.

 

Will try the clutch lever pulling! Engaging 1st before the bike is actually started definitely helps, already found that out.

 

Thanks guys!

 

The condition of the clutch plates, basket, and oil all play a role. I had a 250 that for a short time would stall the motor when you first dropped it into gear after a cold start with the clutch pulled in not matter how may times I worked the clutch lever beforehand. I had to rev the motor as I dropped it into first so it would have enough power to break the plates free and then it would be fine the rest of the day. 

 

I very slight "klunk" when cold is fine. If it gets more noticeable it might be time to consider changing the oil or changing the brand of oil.  Some bikes seems to like a particular oil formulation.  My Triumph 800 LOVED Motul 7100, my KTMs didn't care much for it.  Haven't had the T700 long enough to know what it's going to like of if it will care at all.  I've only put 3k miles on it since I bought it this winter. 

[Endopotential]

7 hours ago, Wintersdark said:

 To do it as smoothly as possible, pay attention to the rpm change when you downshift.  Whatever amount it's increasing by is about how much you want to blip the throttle.  

 

 

Thanks for all the replies guys!  I'm still learning after all these years.

 

On my downshifts I've always blipped, but it's never been a well-studied or precise amount.  So you're saying keep track of RPM changes for each shift 5-4, 4-3, 3-2?  And the next time you do the downshift you blip by exactly that much?  That'd be good practice for super precise throttle control!

 

Though I imagine that the ratios are fairly similar between each gear change, so RPM variation would probably be pretty similar between each change?  Say like 2000rpm each time?

[Tenerider]

I don't think that you should focus on rpm's. I think it's best achieved by practice: Ride at 30 mph in 5th, shift down to 4th, 3rd, even 2nd perhaps, trying to maintain the speed. I've heard some racers do such exercises, at different speeds. I'm actually not too bad at it without much dedicated practice, and definitely without any rpm numbers. It's just become a little bit of second nature just by riding the bike often.

[Alan M]

1 hour ago, Endopotential said:

 

Thanks for all the replies guys!  I'm still learning after all these years.

 

On my downshifts I've always blipped, but it's never been a well-studied or precise amount.  So you're saying keep track of RPM changes for each shift 5-4, 4-3, 3-2?  And the next time you do the downshift you blip by exactly that much?  That'd be good practice for super precise throttle control!

 

Though I imagine that the ratios are fairly similar between each gear change, so RPM variation would probably be pretty similar between each change?  Say like 2000rpm each time?

I wouldn’t over think it.

 

The way I think about the throttle blip on downshift is to help match the engines rpm to the new lower gear ratio. I don’t really see it helps with the actual gear change selection as when you blip the throttle the engine has been disconnected from the transmission.

 

Just smoothes the downshift engine braking effect.

[Wintersdark]

2 hours ago, Endopotential said:

 

Thanks for all the replies guys!  I'm still learning after all these years.

 

On my downshifts I've always blipped, but it's never been a well-studied or precise amount.  So you're saying keep track of RPM changes for each shift 5-4, 4-3, 3-2?  And the next time you do the downshift you blip by exactly that much?  That'd be good practice for super precise throttle control!

 

Though I imagine that the ratios are fairly similar between each gear change, so RPM variation would probably be pretty similar between each change?  Say like 2000rpm each time?

@Tenerider is correct in that it's probably easier to not focus on rpm too much.  It's what ultimately matters for the process to work super smoothly but it sounds like you're focusing too much on it and it'll probably make things harder.  

 

His suggestion of practicing downshifts while maintaining speed is much better way to explain the process and will likely feel significantly more natural in practice. 

 

The throttle blip unloads the transmission which allows a smooth shift, but you want the end rpm's to be close to what they ought to be after the shift to have the whole process (as opposed to just the gear change itself) be smooth.  By this I mean if you just quickly downshift with the clutch and don't come back more on the throttle than you where before the downshift, it's going to suddenly engine brake after the shift so while the shift itself may have been smooth the whole process will feel jerky.

 

Following @Tenerider's suggestion helps mostly here because what you want to do is practice by feel and sound, not by numbers.  Practicing downshifting and maintaining speed without suddenly engine braking (even practice this with the clutch first) will train your right wrist how much it needs to move.

 

[Wintersdark]

23 hours ago, Tenerider said:

Just curious guys, what do you recommend to get smoother engagement of 1st after starting the bike in neutral?

Lots of others have addressed it, but thought I'd throw in my two bits here too, having owned two CP2 bikes.  It's mostly just the nature of the beast, they all do it.  You can get around it by shifting into first then starting the bike, but that's not really a solution, just an annoying workaround 

[Tenerider]

Just now, Wintersdark said:

Lots of others have addressed it, but thought I'd throw in my two bits here too, having owned two CP2 bikes.  It's mostly just the nature of the beast, they all do it.  You can get around it by shifting into first then starting the bike, but that's not really a solution, just an annoying workaround 

Thanks and good to know. At least it doesn't seem to affect longevity!