Calling any CP-2 engine experts/Yamaha techs

[JJT7M]

Hi All,

 

Im looking for any feedback regarding my 21 plate T7. 

It's been suffering with shifting issues since I first acquired her and was convinced it would get better with mileage and an oil change. The specific issue is false neutrals when shifting down. 

I had the technician take her for a test ride before he did an oil change at 12 months/4000 miles. He came back and said it needed a new shifter shaft and it'll be replaced under warranty. Which he did. Unfortunately, is hasn't cured the problem. 

One curious thing of note, is that is seems temperature related. When the Engine is cold, it's much less likely to happen. 

So I'm curious to know if anyone has come across this issue before?? 

I'm thinking possibly a clutch issue?? What other components can be affected by heat, enough to create this issue.

I'd be very grateful for input from technicians or experts. Or anyone that has suffered the same problem.

 

many thank.

[Tenerider]

Hey mate, have a look at this thread:

 

Suggestions apart from oil change are running a slightly lower oil level.

 

I also experienced those sticky downshifts, but much less since I adopted a proper throttle blip technique. And I observed the false neutrals to occur mostly when using the engine brake before stoplights and then trying to shift down without blipping.

[JJT7M]

17 hours ago, Tenerider said:

Hey mate, have a look at this thread:

 

Suggestions apart from oil change are running a slightly lower oil level.

 

I also experienced those sticky downshifts, but much less since I adopted a proper throttle blip technique. And I observed the false neutrals to occur mostly when using the engine brake before stoplights and then trying to shift down without blipping.

Thanks for the reference. Some great advice there. I want to try anything before any major surgery. 

[S.Ga.Rider]

I had terrible shifting that got worse over the miles. Ended up being completely dry clutch plates. I pulled them and when I say dry, I mean dry. I soaked them in oil, reinstalled and it's shifted like butter for the last 10k miles. 

[concours]

13 hours ago, S.Ga.Rider said:

I had terrible shifting that got worse over the miles. Ended up being completely dry clutch plates. I pulled them and when I say dry, I mean dry. I soaked them in oil, reinstalled and it's shifted like butter for the last 10k miles. 

Have you been since laying it over on the clutch side? A common procedure on vintage bikes for intenal transmission lubing.

 

Any idea on WHY they were dry? 

[Canzvt]

So, being temperature related, I'd like to explore the common parts and their respective change in performance relative to heat.

 

Shifter shaft - This runs on a needle roller bearing and seal on the shifter end, and a bushing on the right side of the cases and in all likelihood has its tolerances increase with heat.

Shift Drum - The working end of the shifter shaft works directly on the shifter drum, rotating it in order to move the shift forks. The shift drum is bearing mounted, and works against a spring loaded roller to keep it in position. Unlikely to be affected by heat. However checking the detent spring and detent might be worth looking at. Many bikes suffer from failed shifting due to this little device failing. Not common, but possible.

Shift forks - There is a 'possibility' that these are sticking on their respective shafts but HIGHLY unlikely as they are aluminum where the shafts are steel meaning clearances will likely increase with heat.

Sliding gears - On each shaft there will be sliding gears which engage/disengage as you shift up/down. They slide on precision splines and with all the parts being of the same material, unlikely to change with heat.

Clutch - A dog type transmission (most bikes) requires power to be disengaged from the gear set in order for it to shift from one gear to the other. If the clutch is dragging the transmission will be difficult to shift. This is USUALLY not a problem when the bike is in motion. This usually shows up when trying to shift into neutral at a stop. I recently had this happen on my T7 during a very long ride (7000kms) whereby I didn't change my oil. it became hard shifting after about 6000kms. New oil/filter, no more problem. As said above, check this out. With the ignition off, and the bike in first gear, can you pull in the clutch lever and easily push the bike on level ground? If not, start here.

External influences - Shift lever - Is your shift lever pivot lubed and moving freely? Is the push/pull rod to the actual shift shaft straight and tight? What about the ball joints at the ends of it? Is the shifting RPM sensitive? Gear sensitive?

[S.Ga.Rider]

9 hours ago, concours said:

Have you been since laying it over on the clutch side? A common procedure on vintage bikes for intenal transmission lubing.

 

Any idea on WHY they were dry? 

No and no clue. I had the same issue on 2 fjrs. 

[JJT7M]

On 6/7/2023 at 12:05 AM, S.Ga.Rider said:

I had terrible shifting that got worse over the miles. Ended up being completely dry clutch plates. I pulled them and when I say dry, I mean dry. I soaked them in oil, reinstalled and it's shifted like butter for the last 10k miles. 

Thanks for your response S.Ga.Rider. This is something to look at before any strip down.

[JJT7M]

On 6/7/2023 at 8:06 PM, Canzvt said:

So, being temperature related, I'd like to explore the common parts and their respective change in performance relative to heat.

 

Shifter shaft - This runs on a needle roller bearing and seal on the shifter end, and a bushing on the right side of the cases and in all likelihood has its tolerances increase with heat.

Shift Drum - The working end of the shifter shaft works directly on the shifter drum, rotating it in order to move the shift forks. The shift drum is bearing mounted, and works against a spring loaded roller to keep it in position. Unlikely to be affected by heat. However checking the detent spring and detent might be worth looking at. Many bikes suffer from failed shifting due to this little device failing. Not common, but possible.

Shift forks - There is a 'possibility' that these are sticking on their respective shafts but HIGHLY unlikely as they are aluminum where the shafts are steel meaning clearances will likely increase with heat.

Sliding gears - On each shaft there will be sliding gears which engage/disengage as you shift up/down. They slide on precision splines and with all the parts being of the same material, unlikely to change with heat.

Clutch - A dog type transmission (most bikes) requires power to be disengaged from the gear set in order for it to shift from one gear to the other. If the clutch is dragging the transmission will be difficult to shift. This is USUALLY not a problem when the bike is in motion. This usually shows up when trying to shift into neutral at a stop. I recently had this happen on my T7 during a very long ride (7000kms) whereby I didn't change my oil. it became hard shifting after about 6000kms. New oil/filter, no more problem. As said above, check this out. With the ignition off, and the bike in first gear, can you pull in the clutch lever and easily push the bike on level ground? If not, start here.

External influences - Shift lever - Is your shift lever pivot lubed and moving freely? Is the push/pull rod to the actual shift shaft straight and tight? What about the ball joints at the ends of it? Is the shifting RPM sensitive? Gear sensitive?

Hi Canzvt. Thanks for sharing your amazing knowledge. 

Regarding your questions... I ride this bike in the same way as my previous bike (a Transalp 650) and that is to pull in the clutch and knock down the gears from say 5th or 6th to second or first in situations such as traffic lights changing as I approach a bit quickly, approaching a roundabout thinking I'll take it say in 5th but need to give way to emerging traffic. Other wise if I anticipate correctly, I release the clutch lever between changes and use a bit of engine braking if needed. The false neutrals can happen anywhere on the down shift, however more likely when shifting from high gears and slowing abruptly without engine braking. My current method is to keep an eye on the screen and if I see a blank gear Indicator, ill slightly let out some clutch lever to get the gear I'm trying g to find, and again, so as not to end up in the middle of a roundabout or junction with no drive. This was happening on a regular basis before I adopted  this technique. Now only if I misjudge it or my technique fails.

Ive read some posts that recommend blipping the throttle on the change down. I'll give that a go but not sure it'll help on rapid down shifts and deceleration.

So regarding the dragging clutch... And being temperature related, could it be that when the oil is cold (being semi synthetic) is has a better effect separating the clutch plates and as it thins with heat, they can drag very slightly? Or could there be an issue with heat deforming something in the church? I will try your pushing in gear test this weekend. Interesting stuff.

I was directed to a thread regarding this issue and the was a lot of talk about oil level, fully synthetic oil, and one guy said his gear position sensor or switch was replaced and that cured his problem.

Regarding the lubrication of the gear lever and rod. I would have hoped this is something the technician would have check during his changing of the shifter shaft. They did say it was a 'Kit', so Im guessing it included bushes, bearings etc.

Anyway, I have a trip starting this weekend hopefully, that will see a good 1000 or more miles racked up. Im sure if it just needed running in, the 4000 miles already traveled would have made some difference by now.    ?? ... So let's see. 

I have until November for the end of the warranty.

Thanks again.

 

 

 

[Canzvt]

Good luck!

Well I certainly don't know everything about this engine, I find chasing oil levels and types of oil a bit of a red herring. I run Rotella T4 in all my road bikes, and have had for years. GTS1000, RC51, FZ10, Super T, T7 etcetera and haven't had problems with shifting, clutch action, oil consumption etc (Let the flaming arrows commence...). However, I do have the clutch death rattle with a cold engine and slipping the clutch first thing in the ride - only with this T7. FYI, I run fully synthetic Motul 300V in my YZF and WR450's due to their sub 1L volume, and extreme use.

 

The clutch on these engines (CP2) seems to be a hot topic, so I would start there. As for the indicator switch replacement fixing the problem, I checked the service manual and this is the same plastic rotary inductive 'switch' they use on many other models and it could not create the drag required to hold up the shift drum from rotating. It would be damaged beyond repair and break if it were seizing that much.

 

Something you said made me think. Down shifting multiple gears in a rapid deceleration event resulting in the transmission being stuck between gears might be the issue. I had that happen on numerous occasions during my last ride (7700kms through the Southwestern US to home in Canada) when riding in major cities - something I don't do at home. If you shift down one gear at a time between engaging the clutch, even rapidly, no problem. If I coasted, and tried to shift 2 or more gears at once (something I rarely do), it seemed to be sticky, and would leave it in a false neutral. Let the clutch out, and then attempt the shift again, and no problem. My bike now has 23000kms.

I'm not sure if you have an actual problem or not, but I think I understand your situation.

As for the lubing the gear lever pivot, the dealer would not have had that apart to replace the shift shaft, hence it may still be sticking. They should have noticed though if it was stiff.

[AZJW]

@JJT7M. I agree with @Canzvt. The one and only time I had an issue getting " stuck" between gears was during a panic stop where I basically came to a 5 mph roll in 4th gear and it acted up.  99% of my deceleration is done with blip shifts between each gear and it's never been a problem.  I run Yamalube Semi or full synthetic at the top mark on the sight glass if that helps. I too experience the cold clutch chatter, but only on initial roll out and it isn't a huge enough of a deal to me to pull the we clutch plates to try to cure it.

[Noel McCutcheon]

@JJT7M Hmmm, you’ve said this yourself , no easy way to re-say this other than, “operator error…  Honestly, I think that trying to go from say 6th or 5th to 2nd in one clutch lever pull operation is your issue and not a bike engine fault.. Go down each one and every single gear one at a time for each clutch lever pull operation. Think on it this way that we and you go up each individual single gears one at a time, one gear per one clutch lever pull operation.  No one pulls in the clutch lever in in 2nd gear and goes and clicks all the way up the gears though passed 3rd, 4th into 5th or 6th. So why try that or expect that to work on way down from 6th or 5th to 2nd or 1st in one go / one clutch lever pull. I think that is an unhealthy riding technique as you are relying on brakes too much and slowing too much before down shifting or coasting down too much which are all bad not, especially coasting. It is a sequential gearbox unlike a manual car which you could come to a stop in 5th gear with the clutch depressed and move gear stick to go straight into neutral, as its doesn’t need to go via 4th, 3rd, etc. as manual cars are mainly non-sequential gearbox’s. I know there are exceptions and you are going to say that the Transalp was ok able. However, honestly go single gear changes on bikes on the way down each individual single gear like you do on the way up the gears. Think of the road speed the bike can do or does in each gear on the way up the gears and as road speed decreases should shift down to same gear at the same speed. Eg. If you change up to 3rd gear about 20mph when accelerating and say up to 4th about 25 or 30 mph and 5th 40mph or so, then when you get under 40 mph you should be back down into at least 4th or 3rd i.e. under 30mph down to 4th or 3rd under 25mph etc. if you go up a hill in 4th you at least be in 4th on the way down. If you see what i mean. I fully believe your CP2 is ok and jokingly may be the post could be renamed: “Calling any Good Riding Techniques Teachers”, sorry to be brutally honest. Oh, yes, do oil / lube the pivot point of gear lever at the frame as well and please do ditch the multiple down shifting per a single clutch lever pull. Hope this helps. Best wishes.