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Bike not starting sometimes?


Dakota
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Hey all,

 

My bike has just over 600 miles on it, and twice now it wouldn't start first/second/or sometimes third try.  It seems that i've gotta give it throttle when that happens for it to start? I've not yet adjusted the throttle bodies - still waiting on this to come before I can do it. 

 

Have any of you had this happen? 

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I've had this a few times since having it from new. 

 

I've got 6.5k miles on the bike now and it seems to happen far less often than it did in the first 3k miles. In fact I can't really remember the last time it has happened in the last 1500 miles or so.

 

No rhyme or reason either, happens regardless of whether the bike is hot or cold.

 

Don't know if this is helpful, or relatable to your experience, but I have noticed that it tends to be more likely to happen if either:

 

I hit the start button too quickly after switching the ignition on. (I think this might have something to do with me not giving the fuel pump enough time to build fuel pressure?!) I've had this happen to me on other bikes to be fair when I'm rushing! (Operator error on my part!)

 

Or, if I leave the ignition on for too long before hitting the start button, say 1 minute or more. (I'll often power the bike up, faff-around with GPS, phone, heated gear and gloves for a bit before firing her up and making a noise!).

 

I've also found cycling the ignition off > wait 10-15 seconds, > ignition on > wait for the fuel pump to stop > hit the go button, and she'll fire up straight away every time, but I'm still non the wiser about really why it's happening. It's disconcerting when it does though!

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Thank you both. At the very least I know I can probably safely ignore it and see how it goes as the miles go up. 
 

I’ll report back here if anything changes. 

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The only starting issue I have experienced in 3k kms is if the key is not fully seated into the on detent...all bike electrics & fuel pump will power up & the bike will turn over if the key is turned past the off detent..BUT will not start until fully seated in the on detent.  Not sure if this may be your issue but worth looking into.  

 

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Rosie (My T7) has been at the repair shop for about a month and a week for the same problem. 

 

A bit of history. Rosie is a 2021 model with about 5,200 miles. I had problems starting the bike on occasions, but only occasionally. Sometimes I turned the ignition off, waited a fee seconds, and then try starting the bike and that helped. Sometimes it didn't. Sometimes I had to crank the engine with the throttle wide open and that worked.
 

Then a few days before I took Rosie in the shop it did it to me a few times back to back on the same day. I took my bike in and paid for a full service and an hour labor for troubleshooting it. They could not replicate the problem. 


Two days after I picked up the bike it did it again. This time I took a video of it, called the dealer, and they told me to take it in.

 

Here is what has happened and what Yamaha is doing about it. Yamaha had the mechanics go over a list of 40 different things to rule out a problem with those components or systems. Nothing! The Yamaha tech (not the dealer's mechanic but the Factory tech) and the mechanics got on a conference video call and went over some more testing.
 

The conclusion, They think that it was the Charcoal Canister that might had gotten over saturated with fuel.

 

Yamaha tried blaming me by saying that I was over filling the tank. No way in hell! I put gas to the very bottom of the filler tube and I stop. Just like the owner's manual suggests.
 

They said that it could also be that as I ride the fuel splashes inside the tank and some fuel finds it's way into the tank port, down the line, and into the canister. If enough fuel finds its way in there it will over saturate the canister. That can also happen as you lean around a turn. 

 

When that happens, supposedly,  the bike can sense a super rich mixture and the computer decides that there is too much fuel already and cuts off the fuel supply to lower the fuel and air ratio, causing the bike to not start.

 

Another problem that could happen is that as the bike sits in the sun or when the engine is hot, the gas inside the canister can start to vaporice, those vapors travel back up the hose and into the tank causing vapor lock. If the bikes fails to start the mechanics and Yamaha suggest opening and closing the tank cap and see if that helps.

 

Since my bike is under warranty, Yamaha is going to replace the Canister and pay for the repairs. We are waiting for the parts from Yamaha. They are taking their sweet little time.

 

While at the dealer, I had a candid conversation with one of the reps and mechanics, I asked him about removing the canister and he said that he can't legally tell me to do so, not even suggest it, but between the two of us (and now between you guys and I in the forum) that would most likely solve the problem. It does void the warranty, but only for the emissions components. Which is not good because I am planning on getting the extended factory warranty. Four years for around 500 bucks, totally worth it. 
 

I was also told that Yamaha may sooner or later have to issue a recall to deal with the problem. But only if enough people complain about it. It seems that quite a few have. The more the better. I don't know if he heard that from Yamaha or he thinks so. Regardless Yamaha does need to do something about it.

 

I am no engineer, but can't they just put a float valve in the tank and when the fuel gets to the top of the tank the float valve will close the overflow port? Once the fuel goes back down the port opens again.

 

I will keep the canister in for now when they give me back my bike, but I am planning a trip through America, from the US to Argentina and back, then to Alaska. If Rosie starts acting up again and there is still no recall, I will be taking it off.

 

A friend did some research and sent me this, which he got from Mike's Tenere & Motorcycle Blog: 

 

"So I found something interesting did you know the ignition key can be installed and turn the bike on to the start  position with out being all the way in it will cause the bike to turn over and not start. Another thing is if you put the key in and hit the start button too fast it will cause slow starting. And yet another thing if it happens again try cycling the ignition on and off waiting about 15-20 seconds between hitting the start button it may clear the issue. And lastly also leaving the ignition on longer than a min or two before hitting the start button may cause the same symptoms your having."

 

And yes, these are all issues on the T 7. Some of the problems have been reported on other Yamaha models as well.

 

He also discovered that canister is a problem in the T7 as well. "Yes but since they went to the emissions program it hurts the performance on most bikes and cars. When your warranty expires just go get it un corked and run it naked. Better performance cooler running and better at the wheel HP. Most likely about a 10-15% gain. Look at 2 wheel Dano works. They make a kit, so it says for the t7."

 

Now you folks know. ❤️❤️❤️

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This has been a hard thread to read. Many posters have provided very good explanations for the starting issues but there are a lot of repeated questions, so here is a summary of why you might have a starting issue.

 

1. Fuel in the charcoal canister - well explained by Yasenia and Canzvt. To avoid the problem dont overfill your tank, or possibly remove the charcoal canister altogether (check comments in this thread on warranty). This may also happen if you drop your bike. Another option worth considering is to only "over fill" your tank when you are about to ride so it is not left standing with a full tank or in warm weather.

2. Trying to start too soon - you have to let the fuel pump prime first before starting.

3. Ignition key is not in the fully on position - first raised by TexasT700 I think, that if not fully seated to the on detent it can crank the engine but not start.

4. Tip over sensor needs to be reset - if you drop your bike, the bike will subsequently crank but not start. You have to turn off the key and turn back on again (and wait for the fuel pump to prime, see item 2...) to restart.

5. On similar bikes (I too have an MT-09 and this has been raised many times for those bikes) where a battery is on its way out, or the battery terminals are loose, and there is not quite enough punch to crank the engine and power the ignition.

 

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i had the same thing once about two weeks ago (7000 kms on the bike). It did not start

without giving throttle. Afterwards it was running as always....

Two days ago i rode again after bike being parked for a week (winter here...). It started as

usual without throttle.... Strange thing....

Cheers

Patrick

 

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Mine has 1000 mi now and has now started having this issue...it happened 3 times now in the last 3 rides. 

 

The first time it happened- after starting normally when cold, I rode for about an hour, stopped for about 90 minutes, and it took 3 or 4 attempts for it to start...then ran as normal.

 

I wonder of its crap fuel? Odd for sure.

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I had also this problem twice recently with 3000km on the clock.

In both cases, it was around one hour after stoping the bike. It means the engine still warm.

It took three or four tries to start.

The fuel quality I use is good.

 

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Same at 8,000 miles. I notice it does it more when its in the hot sun. But also, sometimes it just does it when it wants to. I have no idea why it does it. Every single time though if I wait long enough it turns on fine. So weird..

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On 3/7/2021 at 6:11 AM, Hammy said:

Mine has 1000 mi now and has now started having this issue...it happened 3 times now in the last 3 rides. 

 

The first time it happened- after starting normally when cold, I rode for about an hour, stopped for about 90 minutes, and it took 3 or 4 attempts for it to start...then ran as normal.

 

I wonder of its crap fuel? Odd for sure.

 

On 3/8/2021 at 7:13 AM, Jaume said:

I had also this problem twice recently with 3000km on the clock.

In both cases, it was around one hour after stoping the bike. It means the engine still warm.

It took three or four tries to start.

The fuel quality I use is good.

 

 

I have heard this happens very often when the bike has been ridden and then engine shut down for about 20 to 90 minutes. Friend says that his does it but if he opens the throttle a bit before pushing the button it starts on first attempt. Maybe you want to try this and report back. As he is also interested if only his does it. Yamaha technician said they all do it more or less and the MT07 (same engine and EFI) does it as well.

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28 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

 

 

I have heard this happens very often when the bike has been ridden and then engine shut down for about 20 to 90 minutes. Friend says that his does it but if he opens the throttle a bit before pushing the button it starts on first attempt. Maybe you want to try this and report back. As he is also interested if only his does it. Yamaha technician said they all do it more or less and the MT07 (same engine and EFI) does it as well.

For me, typically, when the bike has decided not to start, I've gotta hold the throttle 1/3 open and keep it open until the bike starts. It's an annoying issue, but the bike eventually always does start.

 

I recently got a @2 Wheel DynoWorks tune (can't recommend enough BTW), but that doesn't seem to impact it one way other the other. Curious if 2WDW has heard of this issue?

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So I think this might have something to do with cycling the key on/off when doing wiring, or diagnostics or some other requirement - the injectors fire, resulting in a flooded engine. Sitting for awhile with the engine cooling down adds heat to the fuel system which increases the pressure within it, and might result in the injectors leaking a bit resulting in a overall rich condition requiring a bit of throttle application to lean out a bit in order for it to start. I'm guessing at this, but its the only thing I can think of that would cause this. It hasn't happened to me, as here in the great white north it doesn't get that warm...😉

 

Now, what to do about it...When starting your bike after it has been sitting for 20-90min as above, key on, let the fuel pump finish its pressurization procedure, then hit the start button. If it doesn't fire immediately, give it a crack of throttle (1.5-2mm measured at the grip flange against the throttle housing) and it should go. This would indicate a rich starting condition within the combustion chamber. My WR does this ALL THE FREAKING TIME.

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I think I have Yamaha disease...

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7 minutes ago, Dakota said:

For me, typically, when the bike has decided not to start, I've gotta hold the throttle 1/3 open and keep it open until the bike starts. It's an annoying issue, but the bike eventually always does start.

 

 

That's pretty much what my buddy said. it hesitates but always starts.

 

6 minutes ago, Canzvt said:

So I think this might have something to do with cycling the key on/off when doing wiring, or diagnostics or some other requirement - the injectors fire, resulting in a flooded engine. Sitting for awhile with the engine cooling down adds heat to the fuel system which increases the pressure within it, and might result in the injectors leaking a bit resulting in a overall rich condition requiring a bit of throttle application to lean out a bit in order for it to start. I'm guessing at this, but its the only thing I can think of that would cause this. It hasn't happened to me, as here in the great white north it doesn't get that warm...😉

 

Now, what to do about it...When starting your bike after it has been sitting for 20-90min as above, key on, let the fuel pump finish its pressurization procedure, then hit the start button. If it doesn't fire immediately, give it a crack of throttle (1.5-2mm measured at the grip flange against the throttle housing) and it should go. This would indicate a rich starting condition within the combustion chamber. My WR does this ALL THE FREAKING TIME.

 

Mh...I know what you are talking about but it could be both, too much fuel or too little. It also could be an issue with vapor lock. But as long as I don't have my own bike I will not find the issue.... I don't think that turning the key and switching ignition on will trigger the injectors, but what do I know.

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1 hour ago, Hammy said:

Anyone find an answer for this?


Delete the charcoal can 

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16 minutes ago, BMRT7 said:


Delete the charcoal can 

Can you elaborate on this and/or confirm this fixed the issue?
 

Mine never does it when cold. And only intermittently. 

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You're right, it could be lean or rich. Vapour lock could be an issue. However, vapour lock is typically forms in a low/no pressure system, not a pressurized EFI. Never experienced a lean condition, but definitely found the too rich condition by cycling the key a few too many times... Try it when you get your bike. You won't like it much😉.

 

I didn't think it would fire the injectors either, but there is another thread on here that clearly outlines this. Turn the ignition on, the injectors fire with any residual pressure in the system. Same with the Super Tenere. Don't know why, but seems to be how it works. Had a flooded Super T in my garage for 2 days trying to figure it out, when I read their forum and it became clear as day what the problem is.

 

The charcoal canister is meant to keep fuel vapours within the fuel system and eliminate unburned hydrocarbons from being emitted into the atmosphere (same as the fuel filler nozzles in California). If this becomes flooded (saturated) with FUEL, it emits fuel vapours back into the intake tract resulting in a further rich mixture. Removing it could help remedy the problem if this is actually the problem.

I think I have Yamaha disease...

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11 hours ago, Dakota said:

For me, typically, when the bike has decided not to start, I've gotta hold the throttle 1/3 open and keep it open until the bike starts. It's an annoying issue, but the bike eventually always does start.

 

I recently got a @2 Wheel DynoWorks tune (can't recommend enough BTW), but that doesn't seem to impact it one way other the other. Curious if 2WDW has heard of this issue?

We haven't experienced this at all on any of them in the shop.

2wheellogo.jpg

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On 4/5/2021 at 12:51 PM, Hammy said:

Can you elaborate on this and/or confirm this fixed the issue?
 

Mine never does it when cold. And only intermittently. 


Same. Only while hot. It was super annoying and starting to piss me off.  Has happened zero times since charcoal can delete. Simple job. 
 

Not sure if it’s from tip overs in the dirt or something messing up the charcoal can but it seemed it was jacking up the fueling that the bike sensed at startup. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

Anyway, hasn’t happened since. 

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1 hour ago, BMRT7 said:


Same. Only while hot. It was super annoying and starting to piss me off.  Has happened zero times since charcoal can delete. Simple job. 
 

Not sure if it’s from tip overs in the dirt or something messing up the charcoal can but it seemed it was jacking up the fueling that the bike sensed at startup. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

Anyway, hasn’t happened since. 

Cool, thanks. I'll take a look at it tomorrow. Just simply unhook the canister, nothing more? 

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On 4/5/2021 at 7:03 PM, Canzvt said:

You're right, it could be lean or rich. Vapour lock could be an issue. However, vapour lock is typically forms in a low/no pressure system, not a pressurized EFI. Never experienced a lean condition, but definitely found the too rich condition by cycling the key a few too many times... Try it when you get your bike. You won't like it much😉.

 

I didn't think it would fire the injectors either, but there is another thread on here that clearly outlines this. Turn the ignition on, the injectors fire with any residual pressure in the system. Same with the Super Tenere. Don't know why, but seems to be how it works. Had a flooded Super T in my garage for 2 days trying to figure it out, when I read their forum and it became clear as day what the problem is.

 

The charcoal canister is meant to keep fuel vapours within the fuel system and eliminate unburned hydrocarbons from being emitted into the atmosphere (same as the fuel filler nozzles in California). If this becomes flooded (saturated) with FUEL, it emits fuel vapours back into the intake tract resulting in a further rich mixture. Removing it could help remedy the problem if this is actually the problem.

I don't doubt what you say, I appreciate your thoughts. Just once the engine is shut off pressure will drop in an FI system, except it has a pressure reservoir. That may allow engine heat to build up bubbles in the now unpressurized fuel lines.... That was my thought. Yes, I will definitely try that once my bike arrives over here in the Republic of Bananas.
If it is like you say and I still trust your words then it is a design flaw. I see no reason why injectors should open when the ignition is turned on, in fact they should be closed so the pump can build up pressure. But maybe they only make one open-closed cycle and that lets fuel into the cylinders. Don't know but if that's the case it is a design flaw imo.
 

7 hours ago, BMRT7 said:


Same. Only while hot. It was super annoying and starting to piss me off.  Has happened zero times since charcoal can delete. Simple job. 
 

Not sure if it’s from tip overs in the dirt or something messing up the charcoal can but it seemed it was jacking up the fueling that the bike sensed at startup. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

Anyway, hasn’t happened since. 

Would be great if one of you guys could explain exactly what I have to do to remove the canister properly.

Edited by Doc Brown
typos
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3 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Would be great if one of you guys could explain exactly what I have to do to remove the canister properly.


Pull tank. Pull canister off. 
 

Put vacuum caps on the two barbs for the throttle bodies. 
 

I ran a new vent line from the tank directly out the left side of the bike but retained the rollover valve. 

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7 hours ago, BMRT7 said:


Pull tank. Pull canister off. 
 

Put vacuum caps on the two barbs for the throttle bodies. 
 

I ran a new vent line from the tank directly out the left side of the bike but retained the rollover valve. 

 Many thanks, seems to be a no-brainer...

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4 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

 Many thanks, seems to be a no-brainer...


I threw together a quick write up. Let me know if any questions. 
 

 

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