Which drive chain slack with chain guide ?

[365moto.eu]

Hi from Italy,

I read about 43/48 mm chain slack (1.69/1.89 inch)...

 

 

but I have the OEM chain guide.

 

 

And it seems to me that those values are unreachable... which are the new ones?

What do you think?

Edited February 2, 2021 by 365moto.eu

[Hibobb]

13 minutes ago, Yasenia said:

I literally use a torque wrench on every fastener that the manual gives me a spec for.

I hope not on the oil drain plug....

[Yasenia]

On 3/22/2022 at 3:40 AM, Landshark said:

According to the Yamaha Owners Manual you are supposed to measure the chain at the mid point.  Measure from the bottom of the swing arm to the top of the chain.  So put your measuring stick against the underside of the swing arm and pull down to get the reading.  Then adjust to the required measurement.

The chain should be sloppy when your done, not tightened right up.  

Not my owner's manual or the repair manual. The manual clearly shows it a bit more towards the back. At the end of the chain rib. I think that people can do it the way they like, but if Yamaha tell me where and how, that is what I do. I figure that the guys who designed the bike know why it's better their way.  
 

Perhaps it has to do with the high position of the countershaft to generate anti-squat force. One of the things that make the Ténéré 700 so special. Without that anti-squat the T7 would be, well, just another bike.

 

[Yasenia]

7 minutes ago, Hibobb said:

I hope not on the oil drain plug....

I have heard about the oil drain plug. I am going to talk to the Yamaha tech when I go pick up my bike from the dealer. I will ask him what specs their system gives them.
 

their system is amazing. They put the bike model and year or VIN,  what service they will be doing, and the system gives them a print out with list of all the items to inspect, adjust, change and so on, along with all the specs. Including the torque wrench specs. Nice! 
 

I've heard that the problem only happens when a new crush washer is not installed. I don't see how it can make a difference, but that is what someone told me.
 

I haven't changes the oil on Rosie (my T7) yet. Since so far every oil change as been done during a routine scheduled maintenance. So it has been done by the mechanics at the dealer.

[Hibobb]

 

[Hibobb]

Following the service manual to the letter... I don't always do it.

I learned that years ago while trying to assemble a subframe mount to my tractor after putting anti-seize on the bolts. I stripped 4 of the first six bolts I tightened to "factory specs". No doubt I was at fault, I just wasn't smart enough to read between the lines. I never saw any specs on how much to reduce torque when using loctite, but I am sure there is some reduction that should apply to that product as well.

 

 @350rizzer had posted this a while back.

 

 

**************************

Per Cycle World:

The Loctite people recommend reducing applied torque by 20 percent from dry values when using their liquid thread-locking compounds on threaded fasteners.

 

Ask Kevin: If I Lubricate Threads, or Use a Threadlocker, Should I Reduce the Tightening Torque?

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Hibobb

[Yasenia]

12 minutes ago, Hibobb said:

Following the service manual to the letter... I don't always do it.

I learned that years ago while trying to assemble a subframe mount to my tractor after putting anti-seize on the bolts. I stripped 4 of the first six bolts I tightened to "factory specs". No doubt I was at fault, I just wasn't smart enough to read between the lines. I never saw any specs on how much to reduce torque when using loctite, but I am sure there is some reduction that should apply to that product as well.

 

 @350rizzer had posted this a while back.

 

I can't speak for the motorcycle engineers, but in the only two occasions in which a torque spec was given and locktite was indicated by Beechcraft, engineers already calculated everything. And most critical fasteners are safety wired. Good to know, thanks! 

[Canzvt]

Another way to adjust the chain tension (not factory recommended, but it works) is to squat the suspension down (and tie it down/fix its position with some big goon...) so that the countershaft, swingarm pivot and rear axle are in a straight line. This is the furthest distance between the countershaft and the rear axle. Adjust the chain with a maximum of 6mm (1/4") slack.  Release the suspension tie down, and you should be good to go. This was a common method on early motocross bikes which had SIGNIFICANT chain sag when at rest due to odd geometry and long travel suspension.

[Yasenia]

44 minutes ago, Hibobb said:

 

I saw that thread before. Someone mentioned the crush washer. I find it interesting that someone else posted a commend with a link to another Yamaha model repair manual, the FJR1300. That bike has the same torque specs. So may be me it is not a misprint and you do have to use a new crush washer every time.
 

I will talk to the service techs at the dealer. Curious to see what specs they are given. I imagine that if it was a mistype Yamaha would had corrected it by now since the mechanics at dealers would had ran into trouble.
 

In aviation our manuals were constantly being updated and advisories added by the factories or ordered by FAA. That is why you always have to check the manual before you start any work on the aircraft, even if you had done the same repair lots of times before.
 

Dealers get their manuals electronically now days so I am sure that if there is any revisions to the manual they get it right away. Also, dealers have something you and I don't, direct support from the factory engineers and techs. 

[Yasenia]

7 minutes ago, Canzvt said:

Another way to adjust the chain tension (not factory recommended, but it works) is to squat the suspension down (and tie it down/fix its position with some big goon...) so that the countershaft, swingarm pivot and rear axle are in a straight line. This is the furthest distance between the countershaft and the rear axle. Adjust the chain with a maximum of 6mm (1/4") slack.  Release the suspension tie down, and you should be good to go. This was a common method on early motocross bikes which had SIGNIFICANT chain sag when at rest due to odd geometry and long travel suspension.

Very interesting! Thank you for sharing that.

[BikeBrother]

3 hours ago, Canzvt said:

Another way to adjust the chain tension (not factory recommended, but it works) is to squat the suspension down (and tie it down/fix its position with some big goon...) so that the countershaft, swingarm pivot and rear axle are in a straight line. This is the furthest distance between the countershaft and the rear axle. Adjust the chain with a maximum of 6mm (1/4") slack.  Release the suspension tie down, and you should be good to go. This was a common method on early motocross bikes which had SIGNIFICANT chain sag when at rest due to odd geometry and long travel suspension.

This is the way we measured the chain slack mostly. Sit on the bike and if you (or somebody else if you cannot reach the chain) can move the chain ~1 cm up and down, its good.

[KTM2smoker]

So I decided today to really think this through... which of course ended up boggling my mind but I'm finally sure I have a setting that cannot be out of spec!  In the end, what we all really want is a tension that's not too tight and not too loose.  And, I'm really getting used to my go-no go aluminum block gauge I made.  But did I make it right ?  So grab your favorite brew and think this through with me if you want to understand motorcycle mind depravity...

 

We know:  43-48 is the recommended slack with 55 being the max.  On side stand.  In neutral.  And I think we'd rather be loose than tight, right?

 

We don't know for absolute sure:  Do we measure from the main 'landing' or 'protrusion' - important because its a 5mm difference?  Do we leave the Yamaha chain guide on if we have it since it's an option?  Is there a set of assumptions that keeps us in the recommended slack range? Ends up there is!  Or I'm wrong....you be the judge.

 

I first measured my slack with the Yamaha chain guide on and the guide off - twice.  As my bike sits there was 3mm additional slack with the guide off. Darn, my go/no go will need adjusted, fortunately probably smaller....I decided to go with guide off, that's how many bikes are delivered.  I also checked that on my centerstand with the tire hanging there is still plenty of chain slack.  When I have my shock off to install my new shock spring I'll do a full compression test to verify the slack at the other end.  Has anyone done this, let us know if it gets tighter!  Anyways, so I proceeded back on the side stand.....one beer, I swear.  A cheap American lager

 

So I thought about what assumptions will keep us within spec?  With the guide off I set my chain at 48 from the main landing which is 43 from the protrusion, both within spec !  Chain feels right, also, which is nice, it seemed way too floppy before when I had set it at 48 with the guide on.  The extremes would be measuring 48 from the protrusion (if it was supposed to be at the main landing you'd be at 53mm from the main landing which is barely acceptable) <or> measuring 43 from the main landing (if it is supposed to be from the protrusion then you're 5mm too tight. Unacceptable.). 

 

Summary - with your guide off (it's not factory installed), measure 43 from the protrusion, 48 from the landing OR add the thickness to the swingarm (like my KTM) and make a guage (I set the go at this setting and the no go at 5mm extra slack).  In the end, I had to take that 3mm off my go no go gauge.

 

Other thoughts:

 

1. It's only two 10mm bolts to drop the chain guide off the swingarm and it doesn't effect the measurement hanging there.  Easy enough.

2. It's really easy to keep an eye on your gear teeth and measure chain stretch.  If nothing is changing your slack shouldn't be - assuming you remembered to torque you swingarm bolt 

 

I'll update when I check full compression of the rear.....

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by KTM2smoker

[KTM2smoker]

16 minutes ago, Ray Ride4life said:

Yes we do, it's in the manual with a picture. It's from the protrusion.

 

For the slack you just need to set the slack right without the chain guard and then install the chain guard and measure it again. Then you'll know the difference and you know what it needs to be with it.

 

Reading through the thread others believe it's from the base. There's even a picture of someone measuring from the base. The Yamaha picture also fails to clearly show both so that we could determine which one it's showing, and the directions definitely are not helpful. It's not 'fer sure'.    In any case, my method still stands as 43 from the protrusion is still in spec, right!

[Ray Ride4life]

30 minutes ago, KTM2smoker said:

others believe

What others believe is not important, the manual clearly states:

 

Rib end, not base and the picture also is very clear that the rib end is the protrusion.
I do not understand the confusion here.
You also contradict yourself.

1 hour ago, KTM2smoker said:

And I think we'd rather be loose than tight, right?

And now you say

 

35 minutes ago, KTM2smoker said:

my method still stands as 43 from the protrusion is still in spec

Yes, but on the tight side which is the wrong side like you said yourself.

I like to learn from mistakes but in this case i'm very sure i'm not mistaken.

[KTM2smoker]

7 minutes ago, Ray Ride4life said:

What others believe is not important, the manual clearly states:

 

Rib end, not base and the picture also is very clear that the rib end is the protrusion.
I do not understand the confusion here.
You also contradict yourself.

And now you say

 

Yes, but on the tight side which is the wrong side like you said yourself.

I like to learn from mistakes but in this case i'm very sure i'm not mistaken.

 

[Dougie]

Yup. Had to get the reading glasses out the other night to double check. Here’s the datum up close. Ray is bang on. 
No reason they couldn’t just stick to the universal way of doing it in the first place mind. 

[KTM2smoker]

The owners manual says 'drive chain guard and center of chain'.  Are you looking at a service manual?  

 

I'm not contradicting myself saying I prefer one thing but in the end just don't want to be too tight or too loose. We don't always get what we prefer, that doesn't make us hypocrites.  'Rib' isn't absolutely clear either when you read 'guard' in one manual and rib in the other.  Just like the drain bolt spec, crush washer  no crush washer, it's not clear.

 

There's a polite way to add information, condescension makes forums suck.

[Ray Ride4life]

41 minutes ago, KTM2smoker said:

Are you looking at a service manual? 

Yes, and apparently this is a moment where i do learn something. If i understand correctly the owner manual and service manual might have different explanations.
I don't think i'm condescending, i think it's very clear how the chain slack should be measured but i have to check what the owners manual says and if that is different whe're back to square one.
Basic maintenance should be clear in the owners manual because that one come with the bike and if i'm correct there are also differences between USA and EU versions.

[Uncle M]

Whether referencing the owner's manual (Canadian version here) or the service manual, the same illustration is used in both, and it clearly shows the measurement is from the center of the chain to the rib of the chain guard. The wording may differ but the measurement is the same.

[Landshark]

4 hours ago, Ray Ride4life said:

Yes we do, it's in the manual with a picture. It's from the protrusion.

 

For the slack you just need to set the slack right without the chain guard and then install the chain guard and measure it again. Then you'll know the difference and you know what it needs to be with it.

I think the diagram explains it all.  I have been measuring from the top of the chain to the underside of the chain guide.  Time to change my evil ways and get it right.  Now I'll have to make a new measuring tool.  Thanks @Ray Ride4life

[Chev.]

26 minutes ago, Landshark said:

II have been measuring from the top of the chain to the underside of the chain guide.  Time to change my evil ways and get it right.  Now I'll have to make a new measuring tool.  Thanks @Ray Ride4life

Thanks all, I've also learned from this discussion, As I too have measured from the top of the chain. From now on I will measure from the center.

[mpatch]

The surefire way is pull the rear shock or find a fat friend to sit on the bike and line up the sprockets with the swingarm pivot and set it with just a bit of slack then measure it the normal way and that’s where you need to be.

For my bike and setup that’s just over 2 inches. 

[williestreet]

If you have a guard fitted to your bike you just need to find another place to measure slack that is not affected by the guard.

I installed the BRP guard that Camel ADV sells, but before I made sure my chain was adjusted to the slack I prefer.

Then I installed my guard and looked for a better place to use a go/no-go gauge.

 

The best location would be centre of chain on top of the swingarm like most MX guys use.  3-4 fingers used to be the standard years ago.  Not sure how much that has changed in 20 years, but I do not want to be removing a chain guard to check tension. 

Top of the swingarm just in front of the chain guard is a good location so I made a second gauge for that location.

Works fine and 100% repeatable.  

 

Most important thing is not to have a too tight chain.  Too tight is hard on chains/sprockets, rear wheel bearings, countershaft bearing, and does not allow the suspension to travel through it's full range of motion.  

A slightly loose chain never hurt anything.

 

As mentioned by others, Set your chain to your preferred tension and then remove a linkage bolt and move the suspension through its full range of motion all the way till the tire hits the fender.  You will see the chain gets tighter and tighter until it passes the point where the wheel is furthest from the countershaft.  You need to have slack at this point.

 

 I personally prefer more than spec, but it's your bike do what you want.

48mm clear distance when measuring below the swingarm, 36mm in the top location.

 

 

 

 

[Toppie]

21 hours ago, Dougie said:

5-15 would definitely be a misprint somewhere.  even at different measuring points. Probably fine on a hard tail. 
I reckon your dealer probably adjusted it to max slackness from the start (55mm). Probably more. If it stretched, it’s because your dealer adjusted it way too tight from start.  I doubt it’s stretched at all @Toppie, bet you won’t notice much movement now it’s just yourself checking it each time.

 

Definitely no misprint re the Tracer Dougie.  It's a bone of contention on the various MT-09 Forums.
Yamaha steadfastly support their figures.

That's what made me do a double-take when I adjusted the T7 .

I have checked my own work since reading replies on here..... @Landshark and yourself.

I'm sure I've adjusted it correctly as per the manual:

Doubt crept in as I wondered that, from force of habit, I might well have adjusted it whilst on the centre=stand.

(Again harking back to the Tracer where adjustment is made with the bike on its centre stand to between 5-15mm)

 

However, to be sure to be sure...it just so happens some bits arrived for me so I thought I'd do my 1st service and also swap out the front sprocket.

With my bike on its side stand, I measured my slack (or lack-of in my opinion)

 

The way I read the manual, it seems to tell me 'measure from end of the chain guide'

I've since swapped out my sprocket, adjusted my chain exactly as I interpret the manual and with the bike on its side-stand and it still appears to me to be on the tight side.

Even started to wonder if it's actually spot on but the bikes 'anti-squat' geometry's interfering with my own gut feel. ???

 

Anyway.

The sprocket job.

I've swapped out a few in my time and I've had one or three ''I'm not gonna move'' jobbies along with hardly hand tight ones.

This was one of the former.

Standing on the back brake side of the bike with a socket and breaker bar c/w water pipe extension saw me huffing 'n puffing but my own physical size and reach saw me leaning across the seat and compressing the suspension more than transferring the force to the nut.

Swallowed my pride and enlisted a mates Milwaukee impact driver......a Mighty tool.

 

 

 

Yet to be evaluated.