Be careful choosing 140 tires on the OEM 4" rim

[TimeMachine]

A timely warning about running some narrow-beaded tires on a 4" rim like the Motoz 140's. Not all tires will be affected like this, apparently the Pirelli Scorpion Rally 140 is fine, so will depend on the tire or the brand.

 

 

This happened to me a few months into ownership before I changed to a narrower 2.5" Excel rear rim. The tire went flat from a drill bit. Mid corner the tire pulled off the bead, the rear went very loose and could have thrown me off.

 

 

I will say though that I am big fan of the 140x18 Motoz Desert HT. I now run them on a 2.5"x18 rim and get about 5-6000 kilometers out of them before they have squared off sufficiently that I replace them.

 

I am currently doing some wear testing on this tire and hope to have more good things to say about it later, but wanted to post this for now.

 

[Seventh Son]

22 hours ago, TimeMachine said:

A timely warning about running some narrow-beaded tires on a 4" rim like the Motoz 140's. Not all tires will be affected like this, apparently the Pirelli Scorpion Rally 140 is fine, so will depend on the tire or the brand.

 

This happened to me a few months into ownership before I changed to a narrower 2.5" Excel rear rim. The tire went flat from a drill bit. Mid corner the tire pulled off the bead, the rear went very loose and could have thrown me off.

 

 

Appreciate the warning.  Just to be clear - This happened when you were running a Motoz 140 tire on the OEM wheel? 

[TimeMachine]

6 hours ago, Seventh Son said:

Appreciate the warning.  Just to be clear - This happened when you were running a Motoz 140 tire on the OEM wheel? 

Correct. You can see it was with the original rim and how the tire reverted to it's natural width at the bead. The 2.5" Excel rim is that width so the tire is unlikely to pull off that rim.

There will be other brands of 140 tire with a similar problem, so best to check how the tire sits relative to the rim if you can (not sure if you can rely on recommendations from the manufacturers).

[luke2152]

Anyone thought about the idea of running slime (or equivalent product) not so much to prevent puncture but to buy you a few seconds of air in a major puncture? Does it actually work in that way?

[Seventh Son]

On 2/23/2021 at 8:48 PM, TimeMachine said:

Correct. You can see it was with the original rim and how the tire reverted to it's natural width at the bead. The 2.5" Excel rim is that width so the tire is unlikely to pull off that rim.

There will be other brands of 140 tire with a similar problem, so best to check how the tire sits relative to the rim if you can (not sure if you can rely on recommendations from the manufacturers).

I was just researching tires for when it's time to replace my AX-41's and came across this video comparing 140 and 150 width tires (he also compares different front tires as well).  Kyle seems to be warning about the exact scenario that you experienced.  See right about the 4-minute mark where he starts discussing this:

 

 

[Seventh Son]

16 hours ago, luke2152 said:

Anyone thought about the idea of running slime (or equivalent product) not so much to prevent puncture but to buy you a few seconds of air in a major puncture? Does it actually work in that way?

I've been running Ride-on tire sealant and balancer in all my bikes's tubes front and rear and so far have had no issues at all.  I haven't gotten any flats, and I like that I don't really have to balance my tires when I use this stuff.  I have no affiliation with Ride On. 

[TimeMachine]

5 hours ago, Seventh Son said:

I was just researching tires for when it's time to replace my AX-41's and came across this video comparing 140 and 150 width tires (he also compares different front tires as well).  Kyle seems to be warning about the exact scenario that you experienced.  See right about the 4-minute mark where he starts discussing this:

 

 

Yeah, you can see the natural spacing between the beads on the 140 is much narrower. That doesn't mean that all 140's are unusable on the 4"rim. Other 140s will fit just fine (Shinko for example).

 

The other thing mentioned was the cross section profile of the tire and how much flatter it is when running a 140 on a wide rim. That is true, and it is very noticeable, but there would be no difference between running the 140 or 150 on the 4"rim. They are both very flat! You can see the flat profile on the 150 in the video.

 

To get the benefit of the better/smaller cross section on the 140 you need to use a narrower rim and then the handling of the bike improves a lot, and also better traction on loose or gravel surfaces.

 

The 140 is in my opinion the far better choice for off-road use, and cheaper, but should be done with a narrower rim to get all the benefits.

[TenereTraveler]

On 2/22/2021 at 4:30 PM, TimeMachine said:

A timely warning about running some narrow-beaded tires on a 4" rim like the Motoz 140's. Not all tires will be affected like this, apparently the Pirelli Scorpion Rally 140 is fine, so will depend on the tire or the brand.

 

 

This happened to me a few months into ownership before I changed to a narrower 2.5" Excel rear rim. The tire went flat from a drill bit. Mid corner the tire pulled off the bead, the rear went very loose and could have thrown me off.

 

 

I will say though that I am big fan of the 140x18 Motoz Desert HT. I now run them on a 2.5"x18 rim and get about 5-6000 kilometers out of them before they have squared off sufficiently that I replace them.

 

I am currently doing some wear testing on this tire and hope to have more good things to say about it later, but wanted to post this for now.

 

This same situation happened to me roughly a month ago. Something, (still unknown) slashed my MotoZ RallyZ 140/80-18. About 5 to 10 seconds after losing my tube my tire completely debeaded from the stock rim.

I also had a passenger on the back at that time but managed to keep the bike under control (barely) at around 40-45 mph in a straight line. I mounted a new MotoZ Adventure 150/70-18 as I could not patch the RallyZ safely and have had zero issues since. I will now be running the factory size tire from here on out. 

[JayD]

Excuse my ignorance, but if I want to change for a narrower rim to fit the 140 tires- is it a direct swap? New spacers perhaps? What else do I need to know regarding fitment?

 

Thanks

Edited June 9, 2021 by JayD

[Hobes]

@JayD You need new rim and spokes. Hub will be the same so no need for spacers.  You can buy a new wheel (rim, spokes and hub) or you can do the modification to your existing wheel and replace the rim and spokes. Latter is obviously cheaper because you don't need a new hub, but you also need to find some one to do it. Should't be hard though. 

 

4" is better on pavement 2.5" is better on dirt.  So if you have less dirt riding, I'd stick with stock. If you are mostly on dirt, 2.5" rim is the way to go. 4" also might get slightly better mileage with some tyres because of different thread pattern and tyre carcasses.  2.5" tyres are usually cheaper.

 

 

[JayD]

Thanks a lot @Hobes - couldn’t ask for a better explanation  

[pgeldz]

On 2/28/2021 at 1:56 PM, TimeMachine said:

Yeah, you can see the natural spacing between the beads on the 140 is much narrower. That doesn't mean that all 140's are unusable on the 4"rim. Other 140s will fit just fine (Shinko for example).

 

The other thing mentioned was the cross section profile of the tire and how much flatter it is when running a 140 on a wide rim. That is true, and it is very noticeable, but there would be no difference between running the 140 or 150 on the 4"rim. They are both very flat! You can see the flat profile on the 150 in the video.

 

To get the benefit of the better/smaller cross section on the 140 you need to use a narrower rim and then the handling of the bike improves a lot, and also better traction on loose or gravel surfaces.

 

The 140 is in my opinion the far better choice for off-road use, and cheaper, but should be done with a narrower rim to get all the benefits.

I have a set of Excel wheels coming with Haan hubs in stock front size up front, and 2.5 rear out back for this purpose

[Wintersdark]

On 6/9/2021 at 3:24 AM, Hobes said:

4" is better on pavement 2.5" is better on dirt.  So if you have less dirt riding, I'd stick with stock. If you are mostly on dirt, 2.5" rim is the way to go. 4" also might get slightly better mileage with some tyres because of different thread pattern and tyre carcasses.  2.5" tyres are usually cheaper.

 

Out of curiousity, why are narrower tires better on dirt, anyways?   I'd think a wider tire would be better.  After all, in practice on road the benefit of a wide tire is just putting more horsepower down without slipping, but for handling the narrower the tire the better and you get less delta in slip angle with like-sized tires.  

[Canzvt]

The narrower rim provides a narrower profile for the tire allowing it to bite through the loose stuff to get traction. The wider the tire, the larger the contact patch, hence the more 'floatation' you have. On dirt/mud/snow, you typically want it to dig through the top surface to gain traction on the firmer under surface.

[RobFelicci]

OK I have to say that the front tire in the T700 de-beads when it blows up At speed and that is far more dangerous than the rear happening the same thing. Dont you think?  Now the question is   what tube size do you use - the OEM for the 150 tire or another size??

Edited November 12, 2022 by RobFelicci

[TimeMachine]

On 11/13/2022 at 5:35 AM, RobFelicci said:

OK I have to say that the front tire in the T700 de-beads when it blows up At speed and that is far more dangerous than the rear happening the same thing. Dont you think?  Now the question is   what tube size do you use - the OEM for the 150 tire or another size??

Hi Rob, I agree if the front de-beads then you are in all kinds of trouble! But I was lucky to stay on the bike when it happened on my back tire too.

 

You could get away with the original tube if running a 140 tire. Generally tubes will fit various sizes, and often by rim size rather than tire size.