Inaccurate Speedometer

[M_Johnson]

Hello Everyone

 

I'm a new guy here. I have noticed my speedometer on my New Tenere 700 is out by at least 10%. It is over reading by exactly 10% at speeds over 100 kph. It is worse at speeds under 100kph with the error being just under 13%. I complained to the dealer who passed it on to Yamaha and this is what I received:

 

Speedometer Error
With the general use of GPS (Global Positioning System) technology widely spread these days, it is no wonder that such technology brings interesting questions.
A few years ago, we all knew that speedometers were unlikely to read exactly correct, but we didn’t know how far out they may be unless we had a radar reading to compare. Now, many riders have GPS navigation that gives lots of information, including a “calculated” speed.
It has brought some complaints from some rather irritated owners that drive along comparing the GPS speed to their bikes speedometer and find them differing. In most cases, the speed shown on the meter will be higher than that on the GPS, often by as much as 10% higher. Why?
 Actual measurement Vs calculated
 Wear factors
 Safety
Let’s look at these 3 things in more detail:
The meter needle is being moved (in most cases these days) by electric pulses coming from a speed sensor. As the wheel revolves faster, the pulses have less time between each and the meter registers these as a reading of vehicle speed. It may not take into account wheel-spin or slip that does not give forward motion. Nor does it account for tires replaced with an aftermarket brand that have a different outer diameter. Either of these factors will result in a difference between the actual measurement and the GPS calculation of where you were a couple of seconds ago compared to where you are now to give you a speed.
As parts wear, things change. In particular, as the tire wears down from full tread to wear bar, the distance it travels in 1 full revolution will lessen. Take, for instance, a 150/70 17 tire. If the overall diameter at the center of the treads is 520mm, then the circumference will be (r x π) 260 x 3.141 = 816.8mm. In 1 turn (with no slippage), it travels almost 817mm (more than 32 inches).
If the tread is 8mm deep when new, at fully worn the same tire will only travel 804mm. You have now lost 1⁄2 inch of distance every time the wheel goes around. And this doesn’t even consider the effect of having the correct air pressure in the tire.
But the meter doesn’t know this change has occurred and only counts the pulses per wheel revolution, so the indicated speed doesn’t change when the actual speed has.
From a safety standpoint, it could be argued that in general, more people fall off or crash when they are traveling too fast than when they have slowed down. Therefore the last thing we (a manufacturer) want to do is make people go faster than they think they are going. So we err the meter to the optimistic (faster) side of the reading more than the pessimistic (slow) to take into account the above possible changes. Of course, these days, product liability dictates engineers must make every effort not to expose a company to a lawsuit, so that also has its effect.
To summarize, yes, the average speedometer will have a “built-in” error of up to 10% optimistic and will usually be much less than 5% pessimistic, but at least you can still read it on a cloudy day when your GPS is searching......searching.......searching

Sounds like a complete cop out to me.

 

Does anyone else have this error in their speedos?

 

 

 

[roygilbo]

17 minutes ago, M_Johnson said:

Hello Everyone

 

I'm a new guy here. I have noticed my speedometer on my New Tenere 700 is out by at least 10%. It is over reading by exactly 10% at speeds over 100 kph. It is worse at speeds under 100kph with the error being just under 13%. I complained to the dealer who passed it on to Yamaha and this is what I received:

 

Speedometer Error
With the general use of GPS (Global Positioning System) technology widely spread these days, it is no wonder that such technology brings interesting questions.
A few years ago, we all knew that speedometers were unlikely to read exactly correct, but we didn’t know how far out they may be unless we had a radar reading to compare. Now, many riders have GPS navigation that gives lots of information, including a “calculated” speed.
It has brought some complaints from some rather irritated owners that drive along comparing the GPS speed to their bikes speedometer and find them differing. In most cases, the speed shown on the meter will be higher than that on the GPS, often by as much as 10% higher. Why?
 Actual measurement Vs calculated
 Wear factors
 Safety
Let’s look at these 3 things in more detail:
The meter needle is being moved (in most cases these days) by electric pulses coming from a speed sensor. As the wheel revolves faster, the pulses have less time between each and the meter registers these as a reading of vehicle speed. It may not take into account wheel-spin or slip that does not give forward motion. Nor does it account for tires replaced with an aftermarket brand that have a different outer diameter. Either of these factors will result in a difference between the actual measurement and the GPS calculation of where you were a couple of seconds ago compared to where you are now to give you a speed.
As parts wear, things change. In particular, as the tire wears down from full tread to wear bar, the distance it travels in 1 full revolution will lessen. Take, for instance, a 150/70 17 tire. If the overall diameter at the center of the treads is 520mm, then the circumference will be (r x π) 260 x 3.141 = 816.8mm. In 1 turn (with no slippage), it travels almost 817mm (more than 32 inches).
If the tread is 8mm deep when new, at fully worn the same tire will only travel 804mm. You have now lost 1⁄2 inch of distance every time the wheel goes around. And this doesn’t even consider the effect of having the correct air pressure in the tire.
But the meter doesn’t know this change has occurred and only counts the pulses per wheel revolution, so the indicated speed doesn’t change when the actual speed has.
From a safety standpoint, it could be argued that in general, more people fall off or crash when they are traveling too fast than when they have slowed down. Therefore the last thing we (a manufacturer) want to do is make people go faster than they think they are going. So we err the meter to the optimistic (faster) side of the reading more than the pessimistic (slow) to take into account the above possible changes. Of course, these days, product liability dictates engineers must make every effort not to expose a company to a lawsuit, so that also has its effect.
To summarize, yes, the average speedometer will have a “built-in” error of up to 10% optimistic and will usually be much less than 5% pessimistic, but at least you can still read it on a cloudy day when your GPS is searching......searching.......searching

Sounds like a complete cop out to me.

 

Does anyone else have this error in their speedos?

 

 

 

Yes, I do as well, close to your numbers.  The dealer said they cannot do anything about it.  

[M_Johnson]

Thanks for replying. I am just wondering if a class action lawsuit is in order if there are enough Tenere 700's with the same problem. Maybe all Yamaha m/c's have that problem.

 

Honda Canada settles class action suit over odometers | CBC News

---

Honda Canada has agreed to settle a class action suit brought against it alleging that the odometers in certain Acura passenger vehicles overstate mileage.

 

In 2009 a class action lawsuit was filed against Honda for this very reason. Their speedos were only out 2-4% where ours are 10-13%. Honda settled the case before it went to trial but it was certified by the courts proving merit. If there are enough Teneres affected there would be precedent to launch.

[Jqueen]

Unless I'm missing something, Honda's Odometer was off, not just the speedo.

 

Believe it or not, many vehicles odometer and speedometer don't match up.

 

In my experience, the majority of my bikes have had optimistic speedos, regardless of brand.  

[Tenererian]

I think we'd all be better off if we left the lawyers out. Anyway have a look at this thread:  https://www.tenere700.net/topic/2714-abs-ring-for-speedo-correction/

[Canadian-t7]

The odometer gets its input from the abs sensors, same as the Speedometer.  If the speedo if off, so is the odometer.  Aleks sells corrected abs sensor rings that read correct speed.  You can find him in this forum. As far as I know every tenere 700 has this problem. My pre-abs fz07 is the same too. 

[M_Johnson]

59 minutes ago, Tenererian said:

I think we'd all be better off if we left the lawyers out. Anyway have a look at this thread:  https://www.tenere700.net/topic/2714-abs-ring-for-speedo-correction/

Interesting thread. Thanks for posting it. All very well that someone very smart has figured out a workaround for what seems to be a world wide problem. Kudos to them. Yamaha should be the ones producing the correction kits and sending them out and installing them free of charge. I agree that lawyers should be left out whenever possible but when a corporation knowingly produces a defective item and then does absolutely nothing to correct it, a legal action needs to be enacted...imho.
 

This is a safety issue. Why you may ask...by impeding following traffic if a person riding an affected motorcycle is unaware of the speedo error. A potentially very dangerous situation given all the impatient four wheeled crazies out there.

Edited September 1, 2021 by M_Johnson

[Jqueen]

35 minutes ago, Canadian-t7 said:

The odometer gets its input from the abs sensors, same as the Speedometer.  If the speedo if off, so is the odometer.  Aleks sells corrected abs sensor rings that read correct speed.  You can find him in this forum. As far as I know every tenere 700 has this problem. My pre-abs fz07 is the same too. 

 

They may both get the signal from the same place, that doesn't mean the pulse/mile used by the speedo is the same as the pulse/mile used by the odometer.   This is done on purpose.  Don't know if it is the case with the Tenere though.  Pretty well documented though.

 

One example:

 

Speedometer off, but odometer is exactly right (calculations included)! Speedohealer?! | Yamaha FZ6 Forums - FZ6 Motorcycle Enthusiasts Forum

---

Speedometer wrong, odometer is spot on (calculations included)! Speedohealer dilemma.. Alright, I installed a -1 front sprocket, and I love it...

 

[TOMMY_TENNY]

You guys need to speak to @Aleksandar13! 

[ludo_the_genius]

@TOMMY_TENNY They are more about the solution Yamaha should offer themselves,  rather then the very ingenious solution @Aleksandar13 came up with. Which is a awesome solution, but doesn't fix the generic problem motorcycle brands should take care off.

[Aleksandar13]

1 hour ago, ludo_the_genius said:

@TOMMY_TENNY They are more about the solution Yamaha should offer themselves,  rather then the very ingenious solution @Aleksandar13 came up with. Which is a awesome solution, but doesn't fix the generic problem motorcycle brands should take care off.

Send me a pm the rings are being cut this week..

[marktbike]

Anyway, ALL speedometers are optimistic, with percentages varying between 5% and 10%, in average. It would be the easiest of fixes for the producer to calibrate them spot on, so I guess it's a wanted feature. I think it's to be on the safe side when risking a speed ticket. Imagine if it the speedo read LESS than the real speed and you killed somebody in an accident or simply got fined. You could hold the producer responsible for the event because you thought you were within the limit because of the speedo reading. Just my 0.02 but I don't think I'm too far from truth...

[Landshark]

This is a problem on my machine as well.  My F-150 truck speedometer is dead on at all speeds.  No excuse for Yamaha or any other manufacture to fail in this regard.   I agree a law suit is in order if they won't attempt to fix it.  If @Aleksandar13can make up a fix, so can Yamaha.  I'll be lodging a complaint with Yamaha Canada and I'll let you all know the outcome.

[Aleksandar13]

10 minutes ago, Landshark said:

This is a problem on my machine as well.  My F-150 truck speedometer is dead on at all speeds.  No excuse for Yamaha or any other manufacture to fail in this regard.   I agree a law suit is in order if they won't attempt to fix it.  If @Aleksandar13can make up a fix, so can Yamaha.  I'll be lodging a complaint with Yamaha Canada and I'll let you all know the outcome.

They are covered by their solicitors so it won't make any sense but good luck. All companies do it .

Aleks

[Canzvt]

So what is a class action lawsuit going to get you? $50 maybe. But I'm damn sure it will cost you more to buy your next Yamaha. My dad's 84 Virago reads about 10% fast, as does my '93 GTS, my '13 Super Tenere and my T7. See the theme there? I would bet my next bike that ALL Yamaha's read fast, and its probably for a good reason - not sure what that reason is - maybe we ask Yamaha. But a lawsuit benefits NO ONE in this case.

[Dougie]

I’d put my energy into something useful, like world peace, or biscuits. I only use my speedo in speed traps and the error keeps your licence safe.  The mileage error wouldn’t make much difference in resale over here I reckon. And on the upside, you service it 10% earlier. every cloud etc. Ignore the Speedo, feel the breeze,listen to the motor,  and use your eyes to watch out for Volvos. 🏍

[M_Johnson]

8 hours ago, marktbike said:

Anyway, ALL speedometers are optimistic, with percentages varying between 5% and 10%, in average. It would be the easiest of fixes for the producer to calibrate them spot on, so I guess it's a wanted feature. I think it's to be on the safe side when risking a speed ticket. Imagine if it the speedo read LESS than the real speed and you killed somebody in an accident or simply got fined. You could hold the producer responsible for the event because you thought you were within the limit because of the speedo reading. Just my 0.02 but I don't think I'm too far from truth...

Thank you for your opinion. If you carry this same logic over to the other end of the spectrum would you not be putting yourself in danger by adhering to the indicated speed? You will be holding up traffic and no doubt someone will try to pass you in a less than ideal spot putting you, him and his passengers, and oncoming traffic in extreme danger with possible fatal results.  With the speedo over reading the producer (manufacturer ) is still at fault.

[M_Johnson]

1 hour ago, Canzvt said:

So what is a class action lawsuit going to get you? $50 maybe. But I'm damn sure it will cost you more to buy your next Yamaha. My dad's 84 Virago reads about 10% fast, as does my '93 GTS, my '13 Super Tenere and my T7. See the theme there? I would bet my next bike that ALL Yamaha's read fast, and its probably for a good reason - not sure what that reason is - maybe we ask Yamaha. But a lawsuit benefits NO ONE in this case.

Thank you for your opinion. I would hope that SAFETY would be the thing a lawsuit would obtain. Please see my post to Canzvt. I would far rather have an accurate speedometer...not one that is 13% inaccurate. If it cost a few more dollars during the manufacture of the bike then so be it. You can bet that inflation and greed as well as currency valuation will end up dictating the purchase price more than correcting a defective and essential motorcycle component.

[Canzvt]

I understand your perspective, but what about the speed inaccuracy of Yamaha bikes for at least the last 40 or so years? Are they un-safe because the speedo reads a bit fast? If so, I should have been dead a number of times by now! Further, if you want to include all those bikes from every country, that would be one HELL OF A LAWSUIT!

Calibration and/or a part swap isn't going to add anything to the cost of a T7. Paying for defending a stupid class action lawsuit sure will.

 

May I suggest a progressive approach. Contact Yamaha Canada (or a country of your choice that sells Yamahas) and ask them why their bike speedo's are reading fast. You will likely have to be persuasive in order to get an answer, but my guess is that there is a very good one buried in the bureaucracy of meeting rules for on road vehicle manufacturing. Having dealt with ADR bureaucracy rules in Aussie, I'm quite sure that Transport Canada and the NHTSA in the US (along with other countries) have made it so the Yamaha engineers need to be ultra cautious in calibrations.

 

I'm not defending Yamaha in any way. Just rubs me the wrong way when people talk about wasting money with frivolous lawsuits in the name of 'safety'.

[M_Johnson]

Thank you for your opinion.
 

There are dedicated class action lawsuit firms. IF they take on a class action they will usually charge a percentage of the settlement. There is one representative designated to act as a spokesperson for the action members. There is USUALLY no out of pocket expenses for said members.

 

I personally think that safety is never frivolous. I come from an airline background and it is expected that EVERY employee adhere to all safety policies and procedures to the letter. If a safety issue arises that is not covered under these policies and procedures then it is that employee's job to report said issue which will be identified and subsequently dealt with. I see no difference between aircraft and motorcycles when it comes to safety. They both can be fatal machines when operated improperly or when equipment either fails or gives erroneous information without the operator being trained for such occurrences. 

Yamaha is well aware of this speedometer problem and you are right, this issue has been there for forty years. I have twice reported to Yamaha this inaccuracy and both times been ignored or given a very poor excuse that was written by shall we say an obvious non expert. See my original post and Yamaha's response.
 

It is time well past Yamaha rectifies this ongoing problem and be made accountable. They certainly are not going to correct it of their own volition. 

 

I am very surprised at the posted reluctance.

[Landshark]

For me, a lawsuit would probably be frivolous.  Settle down all you anti lawyer guys.    No one is going to sue.  But if it made them produce an accurate speedo, that would be beneficial.  Anyway, I'm sending Yamaha Canada an email regarding this and I'll see what they say.  If for nothing else it will be fine entertainment.  

[mpatch]

Different tires will make a decent difference. 
Sure would be nice if they allowed adjustment like my KTM does. 
And while they’re at it throw in a decent tool kit like my ktms come with. 

[Dougie]

I tend to “feel/sense” if speed is right for the situation. 
if I was ever to support a class action it would be to stop corrosion inducing salt being spread everywhere. I love my yammy, and don’t feel the need to attack it’s makers. 
( I don’t touch it in it’s special place though, not that kind of love). 

[Dougie]

But I agree, accuracy is nice.

[Landshark]

So this is what I sent today...

 

Hello Folks,
I am the proud owner of the 2021 Yamaha Tenere 700.  I love this motorcycle.  However the speedometer is inaccurate by 10%.  It will read 100 km per hr. when I'm actually doing only 90 km per hr.  So, my question is, what will Yamaha do to rectify the inaccurate speedometer?  This seems to be a fault on all of the Tenere 700 machines so I'm hoping you have a solution.
Thank you in advance for your anticipated answer.