High vs. Low exhaust, pros and cons?

[Toymaster]

Really would like different schools of thought on this one, maybe will help others with their choice(s).  The T7 has been out a while, its faults are well-known at this time, and everyone has an opinion. 

 

Personally, I went with a high exhaust to prevent trail damage and weight savings.  I understand if a person used the bike only on-road and does not want to spend money for little to no benefit, not to mention some areas of the world are not free and inspections are a reality for some.  We all know the muffler is wide, the mounting point is bendable and the clearance to the swingarm is minimal.   What gets me is the choice to spend money on a aftermarket muffler and keep it low slung, what are the pros here?

 

As you can see moving the muffler inboard keeps it more out of harms way and out of the luggage.   I know some/most rally bikes use a lower slung exhaust however they do that to use a rear tank that takes up both sides under the seat.  The only rear tanks I've see for the T7 are only on the left side. 

 

 

 

 

Pro of high exhaust

1. Physically protected by location and passenger pegs and factory muffler support bracket.

2. The known issue of the muffler bracket bending is less likely as there is reduced leverage when the bracket makes contact.

3. Bracket can bend with no ill effects or even removed.

4. Any side luggage is protected from touching exhaust.

5. Enduro look.

 

Cons

1. Cost.  Although if you are replacing the muffler the mid-pipe is not much more.

2. Enduro look.

3. ??

 

If you are going to replace the muffler what would be some pros of going low?

Edited January 4, 2023 by Toymaster

[Colddog]

9 hours ago, Toymaster said:

Really would like different schools of thought on this one, maybe will help others with their choice(s).  The T7 has been out a while, its faults are well-known at this time, and everyone has an opinion. 

 

Personally, I went with a high exhaust to prevent trail damage and weight savings.  I understand if a person used the bike only on-road and does not want to spend money for little to no benefit, not to mention some areas of the world are not free and inspections are a reality for some.  We all know the muffler is wide, the mounting point is bendable and the clearance to the swingarm is minimal.   What gets me is the choice to spend money on a aftermarket muffler and keep it low slung, what are the pros here?

 

As you can see moving the muffler inboard keeps it more out of harms way and out of the luggage.   I know some/most rally bikes use a lower slung exhaust however they do that to use a rear tank that takes up both sides under the seat.  The only rear tanks I've see for the T7 are only on the left side. 

 

 

 

 

Pro of high exhaust

1. Physically protected by location and passenger pegs and factory muffler support bracket.

2. The known issue of the muffler bracket bending is less likely as there is reduced leverage when the bracket makes contact.

3. Bracket can bend with no ill effects or even removed.

4. Any side luggage is protected from touching exhaust.

5. Enduro look.

 

Cons

1. Cost.  Although if you are replacing the muffler the mid-pipe is not much more.

2. Enduro look.

3. ??

 

If you are going to replace the muffler what would be some pros of going low?

I dont mean to derail the thread, but can you tell me what rear rack that is in your picture?

[Firebolter]

Hi mount-All pros, no cons. Cost is a wash IMO, most folks will buy a can even if they keep it low-

 

Low mount-prone to bending and making the bike "wider"

 

I would never leave mine low unless it was going to be ridden purely as a street bike. It is just so much better all the way around. And it looks like it was meant to be vice an after thought-

Edited January 4, 2023 by Firebolter

[Toymaster]

49 minutes ago, Colddog said:

I dont mean to derail the thread, but can you tell me what rear rack that is in your picture?

 

I have another thread where I post where/who I got it.   

Also, noticed the same rack in a youtube video from a guy out of Australia.  I asked him where he got it as well.   The guy I bought it from/through is just a rider and had another person/company make it out of Poland.  I gave him the money and would do it again, but would like to know what company made it so I could replace it when/if it's damaged years down the road.  

 

 

[Windblown]

#3 on the Con list would be top end power. At least on all the kits with sharp bends.  Neither intakes nor exhausts like sharp bends at high flow rates. 

 

I'd rather get the exhaust tucked up out of the way than gain .5 hp (complete wild ass guess) up top but it is technically a con if that is a concern. 

 

The other option would be Camels original high mount exhaust which is more of a sweep than a sharp bend.  Technically it should be a bit better for power output than the "cleaner" exhaust lines of the HP Corse, Huzar, Mivv, etc 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Windblown

[Ray Ride4life]

30 minutes ago, Windblown said:

#3 on the Con list would be top end power

MIVV claims a 2,2hp and 1,4Nm gain with a 2,7 kg loss and the gain is backed up with a Dynochart.

[Windblown]

4 minutes ago, Ray Ride4life said:

MIVV claims a 2,2hp and 1,4Nm gain with a 2,7 kg loss and the gain is backed up with a Dynochart.

 

I don't have any reason to doubt their claim and didn't say they would not have a gain over the stock exhaust system.  I thought the question was high exhaust routing versus low exhaust routing.  I'd guess with a low exhaust and the same muffler they might squeak just a tad more HP out of the bike. 

 

But then we'd still be stuck with that low muffler hanging out in the breeze waiting to get knocked into the swingarm unless a stout rear luggage rack is also mounted.

[MOTOXMAN]

What's the quietest high exhaust ? Im not looking for a louder motorcycle. Not worried about the few HP increase for noise.

[Simmons1]

7 minutes ago, MOTOXMAN said:

What's the quietest high exhaust ? Im not looking for a louder motorcycle. Not worried about the few HP increase for noise.

The Huzar with both DB killers installed is really quiet.

[Wintersdark]

On 1/3/2023 at 10:51 PM, Toymaster said:

Really would like different schools of thought on this one, maybe will help others with their choice(s).  The T7 has been out a while, its faults are well-known at this time, and everyone has an opinion. 

 

Personally, I went with a high exhaust to prevent trail damage and weight savings.  I understand if a person used the bike only on-road and does not want to spend money for little to no benefit, not to mention some areas of the world are not free and inspections are a reality for some.  We all know the muffler is wide, the mounting point is bendable and the clearance to the swingarm is minimal.   What gets me is the choice to spend money on a aftermarket muffler and keep it low slung, what are the pros here?

 

As you can see moving the muffler inboard keeps it more out of harms way and out of the luggage.   I know some/most rally bikes use a lower slung exhaust however they do that to use a rear tank that takes up both sides under the seat.  The only rear tanks I've see for the T7 are only on the left side. 

 

 

 

 

Pro of high exhaust

1. Physically protected by location and passenger pegs and factory muffler support bracket.

2. The known issue of the muffler bracket bending is less likely as there is reduced leverage when the bracket makes contact.

3. Bracket can bend with no ill effects or even removed.

4. Any side luggage is protected from touching exhaust.

5. Enduro look.

 

Cons

1. Cost.  Although if you are replacing the muffler the mid-pipe is not much more.

2. Enduro look.

3. ??

 

If you are going to replace the muffler what would be some pros of going low?

I'll note the the "cost" con is pretty limited.  A Huzar system is about $250 - not free, but by exhaust standards very inexpensive, and if you're breaking the stock exhaust/swingarm, that's gonna cost you a lot more. 

[smd3]

3 hours ago, Windblown said:

#3 on the Con list would be top end power. At least on all the kits with sharp bends.  Neither intakes nor exhausts like sharp bends at high flow rates. 

I think you may be over estimating how much restriction there is. Camel’s exhaust pipe is pretty big and the bends are smooth, not like an old crush bent pipe.

 

Miiv has a similar exhaust and not detriment to the bike. 

[Wintersdark]

4 hours ago, Windblown said:

#3 on the Con list would be top end power. At least on all the kits with sharp bends.  Neither intakes nor exhausts like sharp bends at high flow rates. 

Compared to the stock muffler? It's got a full S bend in it.  

 

My Huzar has somewhat sharper pipe bends for sure, but the muffler is a straight pass through after the second bend - I can stick a ruler from the outlet to the bend.  Even if you pull out the baffle in the stock exhaust you've still got a lot of resistance in that bad boy.

 

[Goody Boy]

Cons of High Exhaust:

 

1. Looks - this will be subjective though

2. Need to relocate turn signals.

3. Could be a burn/heat hazard for a pillion

4. An aftermarket pannier rack will be needed to keep side bags out of the way

[Windblown]

1 hour ago, smd3 said:

I think you may be over estimating how much restriction there is. Camel’s exhaust pipe is pretty big and the bends are smooth, not like an old crush bent pipe.

 

Miiv has a similar exhaust and not detriment to the bike. 

 

Perhaps. Nice wide radius bends are better but still not preferred (for top end power). Most of the high pipe set-ups practically have a 90 degree bend right off the header.  I'm sure it's not night and day difference, perhaps unnoticeable expect on dyno but it's there. Life is a compromise - better exhaust routing for flow or better exhaust routing for protection.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Wintersdark said:

Compared to the stock muffler? It's got a full S bend in it.  

 

My Huzar has somewhat sharper pipe bends for sure, but the muffler is a straight pass through after the second bend - I can stick a ruler from the outlet to the bend.  Even if you pull out the baffle in the stock exhaust you've still got a lot of resistance in that bad boy.

 

 

I'm not comparing the stock muffler in any of my comments so far but what thee heck I guess I better since everyone keeps bringing them up, LOL.  Stock mufflers on street bikes typically use baffles that force the exhaust pulses to basically run into each other before existing the pipe.  It works, and they last a long time but they aren't very HP friendly as a rule. After market performance mufflers typically use packed glass to deaden exhaust noise and are straight thru pipes (minus the spark arrestor if equipped). These  flow much more efficiently than baffled mufflers and generally create more power. 

 

My original (and still remaining point) was not to say the stock muffler is better,  the pipe leading to the stock mufflers position on the bike is more efficient from a power perspective, that's all, end of story.  I'm not "down" on high exhausts. Heck, I have one on order if it ever shows up.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Windblown

[Hollybrook]

@smd3pointed out the deciding factor for me when picking a high exhaust.  The pipes with a "S" bend that are still able to retain passenger pegs look like they do so by using smaller diameter tubing.  Huzar and to a lesser extent HP Corse are an example of this.  CamelADV went with a larger diameter tubing and consequently passenger pegs no longer fit. 

 

@Windblown if you want to see/hear the CamelADV enduro bend in person, we might be able to meet somewhere in the middle.  PM if interested. 

[Redneckj]

The headers have a bend 3 inches after the pipe leaves the cylinder head.  Worry less and ride more.   
 

 

[Windblown]

5 hours ago, Redneckj said:

The headers have a bend 3 inches after the pipe leaves the cylinder head.  Worry less and ride more.   
 

 

 

LOL. Indeed.  I was simply replying to the ops question of low versus high exhaust routing advantages/disadvantages.  As for the bend at the headers. Yep, a packaging requirement, its been awhile but as I recall those bends don't cause the same type of disruption in exhaust flow as ones further downstream past the collector.

[Firebolter]

15 hours ago, Goody Boy said:

Cons of High Exhaust:

 

1. Looks - this will be subjective though

2. Need to relocate turn signals.

3. Could be a burn/heat hazard for a pillion

4. An aftermarket pannier rack will be needed to keep side bags out of the way

1. you think low looks better? it is subjective as you say but looks are really not a pro/con since they are so subjective and a personal taste thing-

2. Nope, you DO NOT need to move them. I have the camel high exhaust and don't even use the heat shields provided for the blinkers. They do not get hot at all.

3. Nope, in fact it is better as the exhaust is tucked in a little more. My GF has never has an issue. In fact, the low exhaust, a passenger could burn their ankles easier or melt the heels of their shoes on the low exhaust.

4. True somewhat. I bought a panel that mounts to the stock rack locations and keeps the bags from touching.

 

If somebody really loves low mounted cans, I have a Brand New Corse low can that I'll sell for cheap. Just PM me.

[motonap]

I don't know, somehow I feel like the High exhaust looks odd on the T7, it does make it look like it isn't supposed to be there. But then again, to each his own. I have seen some really nice ones that looks flash, but still looks like it wasn't meant to be there.

 

I like the idea of it saving the hanger bend issue and while it is a fair amount of money to get the mid pipe from Camel or anyone else offering it, it does mean you really have to choose the right end can for the job if you are finnicky about the way it looks once installed! 

 

Put that together with not all end cans work on the high mount with the stock OEM tail installed on the bike, so time to shell out another couple of hundred bucks to swap the tail tidy out. So its just adds up and adds up!!

 

End of line, would I get the kit, sounds like something that will save you heartburn when you do drop the bike a couple of times.

 

 

[Goody Boy]

I still have the low exhaust but swapped the stock can for something much smaller and slimmer. I've dropped the bike multiple times (I try to ride hard ADV and I'm only 5'8" on a good day). Yes, I've bent the hanger but it has never broken off, so far. I'm willing to wait until it breaks off, or at least shows signs of a crack.

 

The smaller and slimmer exhaust allows me to drop the bike, and even if I forget to kick the can out, it still will not rub against the swing arm. And I agree with you, the high exhaust looks off. But I do agree with others that it is more functional for ADV rides.

[Wintersdark]

Quote

4. An aftermarket pannier rack will be needed to keep side bags out of the way

Hmm.  I missed this earlier; this isn't necessarily the case.  I mean, a big benefit for me going to the Huzar was that I didn't need a pannier rack whereas I did with the stock muffler.  The stock muffler gets MUCH hotter, and sticks out very far - you'd only avoid needing a rack if you had high slung bags like those U shaped deals.  But standard soft luggage with reasonably large bags would absolutely hit the stock muffler.  Meanwhile, the Huzar sits entirely inside and bags hung off directly off the bike don't touch it, *and* it's cool enough to touch even after a long ride.   I assume the same would apply with most of the other options, though obviously I don't have first hand experience.

 

 

 Look ma!  No side racks!

 

[thepointchris]

On 1/9/2023 at 8:30 AM, Firebolter said:

1. you think low looks better? it is subjective as you say but looks are really not a pro/con since they are so subjective and a personal taste thing-

2. Nope, you DO NOT need to move them. I have the camel high exhaust and don't even use the heat shields provided for the blinkers. They do not get hot at all.

3. Nope, in fact it is better as the exhaust is tucked in a little more. My GF has never has an issue. In fact, the low exhaust, a passenger could burn their ankles easier or melt the heels of their shoes on the low exhaust.

4. True somewhat. I bought a panel that mounts to the stock rack locations and keeps the bags from touching.

 

If somebody really loves low mounted cans, I have a Brand New Corse low can that I'll sell for cheap. Just PM me.

PM me with pic, and price, please.

Cheers

[Tenerider]

11 hours ago, Wintersdark said:

Hmm.  I missed this earlier; this isn't necessarily the case.  I mean, a big benefit for me going to the Huzar was that I didn't need a pannier rack whereas I did with the stock muffler.  The stock muffler gets MUCH hotter, and sticks out very far - you'd only avoid needing a rack if you had high slung bags like those U shaped deals.  But standard soft luggage with reasonably large bags would absolutely hit the stock muffler.  Meanwhile, the Huzar sits entirely inside and bags hung off directly off the bike don't touch it, *and* it's cool enough to touch even after a long ride.   I assume the same would apply with most of the other options, though obviously I don't have first hand experience.

 

 

 Look ma!  No side racks!

 

Regarding heat: the HP Corse high exhaust is very similar. It hardly gets warm, and definitely not hot. I guess I could even dismount my exhaust shield.

 

Some here have mentioned a power loss due to more bents in the pipe. At least HP Corse show a dyno chart which indicates a tiny little bit of torque and power gain (!) compared to OEM. I'm sure nobody will notice it.

[Ray Ride4life]

I have the MIVV Dakar and the Mosko Moto Reckless 40 and 80, have the heatshield that came with the bags fitted but it's not really necessary.

[Wintersdark]

On 1/12/2023 at 8:56 AM, Tenerider said:

Regarding heat: the HP Corse high exhaust is very similar. It hardly gets warm, and definitely not hot. I guess I could even dismount my exhaust shield.

 

Some here have mentioned a power loss due to more bents in the pipe. At least HP Corse show a dyno chart which indicates a tiny little bit of torque and power gain (!) compared to OEM. I'm sure nobody will notice it.

Yeah, the potential power loss is compared to an aftermarket exhaust without sharp bends, not compared to the stock exhaust.  Basically any aftermarket is going to have gains compared to the OEM, as the OEM muffler is FAR more restrictive.  

 

With that said, I agree: Nobody is going to notice it.  Oh, people always say they do, but of course they do.  When you've spent probably upwards of a thousand dollars upgrading your exhaust system, there's an incredible amount of self-bias in Feeling The Difference.  And of course we're all proud rider sorts, so of course we can tell, right?.  But frankly, I'd bet big money that any given regular rider cannot tell the difference of +/- 2hp (at most, typically less) on a ~70hp bike.  You can tell if there's a sudden dip in the powerband somewhere, but a well tuned system will typically just arc a little higher across the board (usually less gain than the peak) and it's really not a noticeable change at all.  Different exhaust systems will vary by like .5-1hp between them. 

 

What I find for CP2 engines anyways where you will definitely notice a difference is if you open the intake as well (pull the snorkel out; further modifications after removing the snorkel ie high flow filters don't do anything) and have a tune for that, the power drop after peak is FAR less significant, so the bike doesn't feel "breathless" anymore at high RPM's.  IMHO it's a very worthwhile modification, but if you don't tune for it you'll feel a bit lower low end power which can be corrected by a flash.  Even without a flash I feel it's worthwhile to get more use out of the high RPM range.  

 

This after a year spent with an MT07, a full FTECU kit with a couple flashes to alternate between and different configurations spent testing.  The stock intake is very choked off by the snorkel, and the stock filter (same on the T7 as MT07) gets dirty at the very bottom where air flows through making it worse.  Air goes down the snorkel, then has to go up inside the filter to clear filter medium, then it can pass through.  Snorkel removal is a very significant change, as air goes in and has a clear path through the filter relatively equally throughout it's surface.

 

Edit to add (and go even further off topic, weeee!): If you do remove the snorkel, a handy thing to grab is the Funnelweb pre-filter.  It's a pineapple looking waterproof pre-filter that plugs into the top of the airbox when the snorkel is removed.  It eliminates the benefit of removing the snorkel, but gets you a washable pre-filter that will keep water out of your engine if you drown the bike.  I have one that I take with me on trips where I'll be doing either very dusty offroad rides or splashing around in water, as installing it is toolless and as simple as turning the key to remove the seat and plugging it into the airbox. 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Wintersdark
Going even further off topic!