First longer ride today- gravel question

[zimm]

I've been riding on and off for 27 years. Mostly sporty street bikes or enduro bikes. This is my first ADV bike.  I'm 3 rides and 150 miles in on an even split of 2 lane paved and dirt roads.  I have some questions on what to expect in gravel.

 

Pavement- this bike is a beast.  Handles like a tall sport standard to me. Haven't got the tires to slip yet.  Super happy with cornering.

 

Packed dirt roads- I'm in 4th and 5th gear on packed dirt roads and the bike rides like it's on rails.  The bike only acted up going around uphill corners on the throttle where the road was washboard and the back end chattered a lot. Not sure what is up with that.

 

Dirt road had a few miles of loosely laid down very large gravel- the bike was like it was on ice. Not good. Standing up helped. I'm wondering if the STR tires are to blame, or I don't know how to ride in gravel.

 

I'm starting to suspect I may want a 50/50 tire in my near future.

 

Edited March 12 by zimm

[random1781]

Washboarding has no great solution to my knowledge, it just sucks. Maybe decreasing your rear's rebound would help a bit, but personally I wouldn't optimize for washboarding since that's an oddity.

 

Loose gravel shouldn't feel like ice. The bike will feel a bit squirrely with a little bit of sliding that you can't/shouldn't control completely. The idea is to guide the bike along a general path, realize that you will be slipping a little bit, and not try to control those small movements. Gravel is a more tame version of sand, but it hurts more when you crash! And yeah, those tires are not great for sand/gravel.

 

Cool route if you're in VA:

 

https://www.adventurehorizons.com/shenandoah-trail.html

 

And make a weekend trip to Pine Barrens to have some fun on sand.

[mpatch]

To be able to ride fast and comfortable on gravel is a steep learning curve, almost worse than sand in my opinion. 
and not all gravel is the same some gravel I can cruise at 70 and be fine some I’m at 30 I feel like I’m riding on a bed of marbles and it’s terrifying  

 

 

[AZJW]

Tires (STR) are a big reason the bike is skittish on gravel. Lots of opinions on what is best, check out the Tires/ wheels sub forum for lots of opinions. Another thing to consider is your suspension like @random1781 mentioned. If you're over about 165 lbs riding weight you'll at some point probably be looking for a rear spring that matches your weight ( see the Suspension sub forum for more ideas). I ride a lot of loose gravel on hard pack dirt and a tire change ( especially the front) was a huge improvement.  Respringing the rear was also a big help with stability,  but yes, washboard is what it is.  I haven't found a really good fix for an uphill turn on loose gravel other than standing and feathering the throttle rather than hammering it. 

[Hibobb]

Did you lower your tire air pressure for off road?

[CamT]

I second a lot of what’s mentioned above. 50/50 tires, getting the right spring (I changed mine) and practicing to let the bike squirm while not gripping the bars. Pinching the bike at your ankles , not gripping with your arms. 
For cornering, there are some videos on YouTube. Coming from the street, you might not be used to counter steering, as opposed to leaning into the corners . Knowing counter steering, and when to weight the outside peg in a corner will help a lot with confidence and feeling more secure in the turn .

 

Edited March 13 by CamT

[Michael Kennedy]

I agree that gravel is tough, tougher than sand and loose dirt IMO. Great looking bike too, I have nearly the same one.

 

For the suspension, I was pretty agast at the disconnectedness under washboard. The suspension wasn’t good at all for it. Then I watched this video from Nomad Sweden who makes excellent content, followed his setitngs on the stock suspension and it transformed the bike. I grew up racing MX on 125s so have at least some sense of how suspension should be. Before it was way off, this might not be a magic bullet but major improvement. 

 

Definitely give it a try: 

 

[Rider 101]

I would take gravel over sand any day!

Pea gravel can be a little nerve wracking especially in a tight corner.

It's all a learning curve so take your time.

[zimm]

Thanks for the inputs.  It was a section of freshly dumped gravel, on a steep downhill, probably to fill in what was a muddy road. Not compacted at all and while I was going around 30mph, the rocks looked small potato sized to me.  I was mostly scared of the lack of braking action- I didn't use the front at all, but tried slowing with the rear and not much there (ABS was on).  I'll learn.  It's just intimidating sliding such a big bike. But that's why I bought the thing, to learn a new challenge.

 

I have some experience in pure sand (Glamis sand dunes with a YZ250 and paddle tire) 20 something years ago. At least in sand, you let off the gas and you stop.

 

I'm 205 without gear, so I'm sure a re-spring is in my future.  I'm waiting on the 20mm lower links to arrive before setting the sag.  So for a 220 pound rider, but no passenger or luggage... 90nm or 95nm spring?

[AZJW]

@zimm One handling improvement is to turn off your ABS when off-road. I believe the 2024 has the option of front on only, which I highly recommend you do not use, turn everything completely off.  Also, practicing using the front brake on mild downhills and working up to steeper slopes will raise your confidence.  Using the front brake on loose downhills definitely takes practice and commitment, but due to weight transfer, using rear brake only will result in a lockup and a wild ride.  Ariemann1 on YT has a great training video on front brake use, might give it a look.  Starts at 1:08

 

 

 

 

 

Regarding the replacement spring sizing,  everyone has different requirements i.e. solo  or two up, luggage, etc. so spring choice is a very individual thing. John at RallyRaid ( forum vendor) helped me in the past as my weight range (198 lbs with riding gear) was borderline between a 85 or 90nm spring. He suggested I go with the 90nm spring which has worked out great for my needs. 

If you research the Suspension sub forum, I'm sure you can find someone who has posted similar requirements and what they used and their settings.

Edited March 13 by AZJW
Updated with video link

[zimm]

I just ordered the Rally Raid 90NM spring, compressor, and sag ruler. They say to add 10% with a lowering link, so hopefully it's stiff enough.  I'm not carrying luggage or a passenger. I'm going to try the clicker settings from the above youtube- basically he stiffened everything up 4 clicks (to save anyone 8 mins of video watching).

 

Will turn off front ABS next time I hit that road or any other lots of dirt rides. 

[jdub53]

On state forest roads where I live I often encounter stretches of fresh loose, deep gravel, and to echo everyone else the tires definitely make a difference on how the bike handles it.

 

I've been using a MotoZ GPS rear in the Mostly Off-Road orientation on my T7 for a while now, and while it helps delivers great mileage that solid center strip gives the bike a floating feel across gravel. While everything is a compromise and that's about the only thing I have to say mildly bad about this GPS rear tire, I just had delivered a pair of Michelin Wilds ($60 rebate from Michelin for a pair if bought during March 2024) that'll be going on in a few months. I'm looking forward to the overall great feel again with knobbies in all dirt situations I encounter. 

 

 

[zimm]

Those are the exact tires I was reading about today. I'm tempted to pick up a set as well.  Michelin is my favorite brand, and when in something sketchy it's always nice to know I like the tires under the bike.

[CamT]

13 hours ago, zimm said:

Thanks for the inputs.  It was a section of freshly dumped gravel, on a steep downhill, probably to fill in what was a muddy road. Not compacted at all and while I was going around 30mph, the rocks looked small potato sized to me.  I was mostly scared of the lack of braking action- I didn't use the front at all, but tried slowing with the rear and not much there (ABS was on).  I'll learn.  It's just intimidating sliding such a big bike. But that's why I bought the thing, to learn a new challenge.

 

I have some experience in pure sand (Glamis sand dunes with a YZ250 and paddle tire) 20 something years ago. At least in sand, you let off the gas and you stop.

 

I'm 205 without gear, so I'm sure a re-spring is in my future.  I'm waiting on the 20mm lower links to arrive before setting the sag.  So for a 220 pound rider, but no passenger or luggage... 90nm or 95nm spring?

I bought my spring from rally raid, also because I had lowering links. I emailed them my weight with gear, approx how much luggage I want to carry on average , and noted the lowering links and let them recommend accordingly. It was a 90nm spring for me. But I’m 160 lbs + gear + luggage (told them avg around 50lbs) + lowering link factor 

my goal was to get my sag right with only about 4 clicks of preload (no luggage ) and it got me there. 

 

 

[DT675]

50/50 tires with full factory recomended pressure will still feel like its on marbles.  As @Hibobb said= pressure is key.  Try lowering the pressure.  It will make a big difference.  Better yet, get the new tires and THEN lower the pressure.  (personally I run 22-25 PSI if im going to do a lot of loose gravel)

 

[prowlnS10]

Kyle Bradshaw of ManyBikes does some of the best ADV tire reviews, this 2022 review will bring you mostly up to speed on a variety of good 50/50 tires...the new Tusk 2Track tires looks promising & good value..my current favourite combo is the Motoz  Dual Venture TL front & Tractionator Adventure rear, both long lasting & very good on pavement & all but slimy, mucky dirt & deep sand where the Rallz or other more dirt biased tires do better.

 

Edited March 16 by prowlnS10

[DT675]

Thanks for that ,  I just checked out the Tusk 2Track and they might just be the tire I'm looking for.  I'm looking to go more aggressive in the front than my current Motoz GPS (which I like) and similar in the rear but just without the center strip. 

 

The Motoz GPS is an interesting tire.  I do really like them overall with 7K miles of use so far.  I think the fronts could be a little more aggressive to better match the rear.  And they show no signs of wear other than some very light edge rounding @ 7K miles!  They will last forever and I don't even want them to.  I'm ready to try something new.  The rears are perfect IMO other than the center strip.  That makes them very slippery when full upright on hardpack dusty or mud slicked conditions.

 

 

[Windblown]

On 3/12/2024 at 6:55 PM, zimm said:

I've been riding on and off for 27 years. Mostly sporty street bikes or enduro bikes. This is my first ADV bike.  I'm 3 rides and 150 miles in on an even split of 2 lane paved and dirt roads.  I have some questions on what to expect in gravel.

 

Pavement- this bike is a beast.  Handles like a tall sport standard to me. Haven't got the tires to slip yet.  Super happy with cornering.

 

Packed dirt roads- I'm in 4th and 5th gear on packed dirt roads and the bike rides like it's on rails.  The bike only acted up going around uphill corners on the throttle where the road was washboard and the back end chattered a lot. Not sure what is up with that.

 

Dirt road had a few miles of loosely laid down very large gravel- the bike was like it was on ice. Not good. Standing up helped. I'm wondering if the STR tires are to blame, or I don't know how to ride in gravel.

 

I'm starting to suspect I may want a 50/50 tire in my near future.

 

 

Congrats on the new ride.   Running uphill over washboard and on the gas brings a lot of shocks to their knees.  Playing with the rebound may help.  A better shock will too but even great shocks can struggle a bit to find traction and not chatter in that particular situation.

 

Certain types of loose gravel can be deceptively difficult to navigate, that is multiplied as bike weight increases.   I ride a LOT of dirt and gravel roads as well as two-track.  There is one road in my area that is smooth looking loose gravel that refuses to pack down and it simply cannot be ridden sitting down on any bike I have ever rode across no matter what tires I have mounted. No one else I have ridden with on it has been able to ride it sitting down either, but to look at the road it appears pretty tame. Even while standing the front and rear tend swap around some, just not as uncontrollably. There is another road nearby that even on a dirt bike it feels like you have a flat rear tire at speed., but is better on a heavier bike.  Long story short - All gravel is not the same and sometimes tire choice and air pressure makes a difference, and sometimes it's just the nature of gravel that is causing the struggle. 

 

Since ABS was mentioned - I am a huge fan of running front ABS on at all times and the rear off at all times (in fact I have the rear ABS completely disabled).  The ABS on the T700 is not state of the art but it will forgive a badly timed or ill chosen stab at the front brake on loose terrain when the unexpected makes you grab the brake harder than you intended to while in a corner and keep you from instantly faceplanting.  But that's just me.

 

 

[zimm]

I did 120 miles yesterday, most on dirt and gravel.  Changes to the bike- Rally Raid 90nm spring, 20mm lowering links, drop tire pressures to 29psi. All clickers up 4 over stock (recommended from a YouTube vid).  ABS off.

 

Night and day difference.  Now it rides like a big dirt bike.

 

Still need to set the sag when I can get the kids off their game system to help measure.

 

 

[mesto102]

I always feel like I gotta stand up on gravel. Don’t want to risk it!

[zimm]

My sag measuring tool arrived. 60mm front and rear, I think that's perfect.  I'm 2 clicks of preload in from zero.

[Hollybrook]

I'm at 65mm sag front and rear with Rally Raid cartridges and shock. I probably should play around more with suspension settings, but they are working quite well for me on mixed rides. 

[AZJW]

2 hours ago, zimm said:

My sag measuring tool arrived. 60mm front and rear, I think that's perfect.  I'm 2 clicks of preload in from zero.

That's exactly how mine worked out. Sounds like the 90Nm spring was the right choice.

[Robo]

10 hours ago, AZJW said:

That's exactly how mine worked out. Sounds like the 90Nm spring was the right choice.

Do you mind if I ask what your weight is roughly?

[zimm]

3 hours ago, Robo said:

Do you mind if I ask what your weight is roughly?

205 without gear, so I'm guessing 215-220 ready to ride.