Ténéré 700 Rear Axle Nut/Locking Washer...

[orbsurfer]

Regarding the Rear Axle Nut/Locking Washer on the Yamaha Ténéré 700, I ran into a weird problem... I have removed and reinstalled the rear axle nut countless times, but the other night, the locking washer mounted on the outside of this nut??? locked up the nut so the aluminum adjusting block on the opposite side got damaged.  When I inspected the locking washer, half of the washer follows the angle of the threads on the bolt, the other half is flat; i.e. the reason why the locking washer locked the rear axle and damaged the adjusting block

 

.

 

Just for clarification, part of my education is in designing, calculating and machining metal parts, and one of the topics we studied closely back in the day, was locking nuts, every type on the market. I have never, ever seen any locking nut like this before. There is very little logic to this arrangement, and my explanation is too much sake in the hands of some Japanese engineer...

 

I wonder if anyone else have had issues with this locking nut? I will change the locking nut on my Ténéré 700 to a typical layout with a locking washer between the washer and the nut, as shown in more or less every motorcycle parts and service manual I have. I checked through a stack of them last night...

 

[Canzvt]

Been designing for manufacturing for years. This is a common type of nut (on Japanese manufactured machines - see link to nerd out in tech info...https://www.fun.co.jp/english/products/u-nut.php) that has been in use for well over 50 years. My guess is that the nut galled on the threads somewhere, and not necessarily via the thread locking mechanism.  Takes a fair bit of torque to displace that much 6061 Aluminum on the backing plate.

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Canzvt

[NvNick]

The nut works, no need to change it. Honda uses one as well and i used to buy them for my Kawasaki’s. The adjusting block probably ended up that way by not having the axle fully seated against it when tightening the nut.

[TimeMachine]

Well I will go against the flow here. This type of damage is inevitable given the poor/cheap design of the nut. The locking mechanism requires too much torque simply to overcome the lock. All that torque is applied to the axle until it releases. If there is any issue with the locking plate, threads, any additional friction from corrosion or overtightening and you will see this happen.

This nut also creates issues when trying to apply the correct binding on the wheel. That is, how much torque is applied to the assembly and how much just to turn the nut. Hard to tell. And you might get away with this on a bike with workshop tools, but when out in the field it requires way too much torque to release using hand tools when torqued correctly.

The best thing to do is replace it with a different nut and locking device before this happens. A good one is the titanium nut supplied by @BellissiMoto.

 

https://www.bellissimoto.com/parts/fasteners-hardware/axle-nuts/gilles-acm-titanium-axle-nut-m18-x-1-5-for-honda-kawasaki-suzuki-triumph-yamaha-models-1

 

Also worth noting, the axle is identical to the 2017-2020 Yamaha MT09, including the damaged axle locator plate in your photo. You might be able to source one second hand if not available right now from Yamaha.

[Stujamur]

On 6/30/2021 at 7:52 PM, TimeMachine said:

Well I will go against the flow here. This type of damage is inevitable given the poor/cheap design of the nut. The locking mechanism requires too much torque simply to overcome the lock. All that torque is applied to the axle until it releases. If there is any issue with the locking plate, threads, any additional friction from corrosion or overtightening and you will see this happen.

This nut also creates issues when trying to apply the correct binding on the wheel. That is, how much torque is applied to the assembly and how much just to turn the nut. Hard to tell. And you might get away with this on a bike with workshop tools, but when out in the field it requires way too much torque to release using hand tools when torqued correctly.

The best thing to do is replace it with a different nut and locking device before this happens. A good one is the titanium nut supplied by @BellissiMoto.

 

https://www.bellissimoto.com/parts/fasteners-hardware/axle-nuts/gilles-acm-titanium-axle-nut-m18-x-1-5-for-honda-kawasaki-suzuki-triumph-yamaha-models-1

 

Also worth noting, the axle is identical to the 2017-2020 Yamaha MT09, including the damaged axle locator plate in your photo. You might be able to source one second hand if not available right now from Yamaha.

Interesting as last time i tightened this nut using my rally raid spanner , when trying to remove the nut a few months later i had to use a big spanner & stand on it . No way i would of undone it trail side 

[mcbrien]

This nut failed on my FZ07 after several uses. Lots of failures on FZ07 site. It destroyed my axle, nut and adjuster.

I bought a stainless steel nut from Fastenal . What a stupid design. I miss the old nut and carter pin design that was bullet proof.   

[Canzvt]

3 hours ago, mcbrien said:

This nut failed on my FZ07 after several uses. Lots of failures on FZ07 site. It destroyed my axle, nut and adjuster.

I bought a stainless steel nut from Fastenal . What a stupid design. I miss the old nut and carter pin design that was bullet proof.   

Nothing stopping you from buying a nut and drilling a hole...

[mcbrien]

They didn't have a stainless steel crown nut.

[concours]

Back the nut off, grease the threads with moly grease or Nevr-Sneez.

50 years of experience for your usage.

[pgeldz]

This is a common occurrence on the FZ-07 with same style of Axle Nut.  Many on the FZ-07 have changed to the Gilles Titanium Locking Axle nut and never looked back, but it's not the cheapest option

 

- Paul

[Canzvt]

Hmm. Every CR/XR/XL and probably countless other Honda's had them for years. Likewise most Yamaha dirt bikes for as far back as I can remember. Motocross bikes have their axles on/off multiple times per year. Can't remember hearing of any problems with them. Perhaps there is an issue with axle material selection or ...it is user error...

[Tigerjohn]

On 6/30/2021 at 10:52 AM, TimeMachine said:

 

The best thing to do is replace it with a different nut and locking device before this happens. A good one is the titanium nut supplied by @BellissiMoto.

 

https://www.bellissimoto.com/parts/fasteners-hardware/axle-nuts/gilles-acm-titanium-axle-nut-m18-x-1-5-for-honda-kawasaki-suzuki-triumph-yamaha-models-1

 

 

 

Just had a look at that nut....... $79.95....... haven't stopped laughing yet.

[TimeMachine]

1 hour ago, Tigerjohn said:

 

Just had a look at that nut....... $79.95....... haven't stopped laughing yet.

Yeah I agree it has some sticker shock. I didn't pay that, having taken advantage of one of the group buys on this forum. But it is a very nice product and I enjoy the simple wheel removal, which has been often lately changing tires, bearings, chain and sprockets and brake parts. Money well spent for me.

I even fitted it to my shopping cart (the lengths we go to for a ride during lock-down...).

 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by TimeMachine

[POLISHADAM82]

On 8/26/2021 at 8:49 PM, Canzvt said:

Hmm. Every CR/XR/XL and probably countless other Honda's had them for years. Likewise most Yamaha dirt bikes for as far back as I can remember. Motocross bikes have their axles on/off multiple times per year. Can't remember hearing of any problems with them. Perhaps there is an issue with axle material selection or ...it is user error...

for some weird reason I'm shooting for the user error like you said

[jeff936]

22 hours ago, TimeMachine said:

Yeah I agree it has some sticker shock. I didn't pay that, having taken advantage of one of the group buys on this forum. But it is a very nice product and I enjoy the simple wheel removal, which has been often lately changing tires, bearings, chain and sprockets and brake parts. Money well spent for me.

I even fitted it to my shopping cart (the lengths we go to for a ride during lock-down...).

 

 

 

Single disc is done Timemachine. How's the performance? 

[Canzvt]

So, as a manufacturing and design engineer, I'm now intrigued on what the cause of this axle thread failure is. There are lots of reports the nut is crap, garbage, etc, buy a new titanium one for $xx whatever, but what caused the failure in the first place? It would appear from reading all the posts on the FZ site that thread galling is the culprit, but from what? Thread galling is usually caused by some foreign material being wedged between the threads, or materials of similar hardness binding during torqueing with both resulting in thread form deformation, interference, and finally cold welding the 2 together. Does anyone have a fused nut/axle that can be investigated? Is it possible that the nut was installed onto a dirty thread? Is it possible it was over-torqued?

 

If the axle AND the nut are of similar hardness and are threaded on dry (unlubricated) they will eventually gall (cold weld) together once they wear in a bit and are torqued to a high spec. A small amount of anti-seize on the threads during assembly will eliminate the risk. Plating of the fasteners can sometimes play this role.

 

Per FujiLok's website, the spring retaining rings are made of stainless spring steel which should not cause a problem UNLESS the axle threads are comparatively soft, resulting in axle thread deformation, and eventual galling with the nut thread per explanation above. FujiLok's nuts are VERY good at resisting vibration - much better than nyloks, loctite, etc, which is likely why they were chosen as an OEM fitment.

 

The titanium nut idea is a potential solution, but why should anyone have to pay ~$70-80 for a fix when they have the right parts to begin with. Further, the Titanium one will not fail due to its lower hardness relative to the axle, meaning the ID threads of the nut will plastically deform if/when the axle threads wear thus resulting in the nut 'wearing' out over time (probably much longer than the life of the motorcycle though...).

[TimeMachine]

On 8/31/2021 at 10:20 PM, jeff936 said:

 

Single disc is done Timemachine. How's the performance? 

Well spotted! Yes, conversion has gone very well using an R1 320mm rotor and the original left side Brembo brake caliper and custom caliper bracket.

The lever feel is quite different now. Previously the lever had a long progressive throw and could be modulated gently for tricky sections of trails, but also if you gave it a good squeeze could haul a lot of speed off or lock up at will, even on bitumen. I always rated the original front brakes as very good.

Now the lever hardly moves, but the braking is more in tune with lever effort (rather than lever throw). It could be described as a little wooden because of the reduced lever movement. Feel is still very good though, and there is plenty of power once the HH pads are warmed up. But not as powerful as the full twin disks.

A couple of things make this favourable to me, especially off-road. Firstly, the front and rear brakes feel better balanced (my modified rear brake is extremely good), perhaps now with more bias to the rear, which feels natural in tricky conditions, and dont need think about trying to balance the brakes front and rear.

The other benefit of course is the lighter unsprung weight, reduced by 2.2 kgs (4.7lbs). But it is also easier to remove or clean the front wheel (brake calipers were previously in the way), or remove the front guard (no crossover brake hose).

I bought the caliper bracket from Tako ( @K4T3M ) on this forum and it fit perfectly without needing any spacers for caliper or rotor. I did need to purchase some specific bolts to fit the spacer including an M10x25mm fine 1.25mm pitch and M10x30mm fine 1.25mm pitch. I decided to get these in titanium along with titanium main caliper bolts as you can see below.

Fitting the rotor required shaving some metal off the ABS ring tabs and bolts. If you can find a better rotor that already has the space for the ABS ring then that would make the whole fitment very simple.

[TimeMachine]

On 8/31/2021 at 1:35 AM, POLISHADAM82 said:

for some weird reason I'm shooting for the user error like you said

Not likely. Corrosion might have made the situation worse, and some stretch of the nut, but my bet is the locking plate deforms on the axle threads when the nut is loaded such that it creates more bind on the axle. This might be a good thing at low torque settings, but at the specified torque (and required torque), its too much for the nut and locking plate design. 

[POLISHADAM82]

11 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

Not likely. Corrosion might have made the situation worse, and some stretch of the nut, but my bet is the locking plate deforms on the axle threads when the nut is loaded such that it creates more bind on the axle. This might be a good thing at low torque settings, but at the specified torque (and required torque), its too much for the nut and locking plate design. 

Well that would fall under user error situation. If you see corrosion you should clean it or replace the nut it's a pretty simple solution imo.

 

[TimeMachine]

Just now, POLISHADAM82 said:

Well that would fall under user error situation. If you see corrosion you should clean it or replace the nut it's a pretty simple solution imo.

 

I was referring to corrosion in general, but this bike is relatively new with absolutely no sign of corrosion.

[Canzvt]

Does anyone have an axle (or end of an axle) with nut 'welded' to it that they want to send me? As explained above, I'm curious, have access to the appropriate tools to investigate and am willing to share the results. I look at this as a learning opportunity, as this combo is very robust normally and I highly doubt the lock ring is the cause due to its relative hardness (softer) compared to the axle shaft, but willing to learn if it is.

[jeff936]

On 9/1/2021 at 10:37 PM, TimeMachine said:

Well spotted! Yes, conversion has gone very well using an R1 320mm rotor and the original left side Brembo brake caliper and custom caliper bracket.

The lever feel is quite different now. Previously the lever had a long progressive throw and could be modulated gently for tricky sections of trails, but also if you gave it a good squeeze could haul a lot of speed off or lock up at will, even on bitumen. I always rated the original front brakes as very good.

Now the lever hardly moves, but the braking is more in tune with lever effort (rather than lever throw). It could be described as a little wooden because of the reduced lever movement. Feel is still very good though, and there is plenty of power once the HH pads are warmed up. But not as powerful as the full twin disks.

A couple of things make this favourable to me, especially off-road. Firstly, the front and rear brakes feel better balanced (my modified rear brake is extremely good), perhaps now with more bias to the rear, which feels natural in tricky conditions, and dont need think about trying to balance the brakes front and rear.

The other benefit of course is the lighter unsprung weight, reduced by 2.2 kgs (4.7lbs). But it is also easier to remove or clean the front wheel (brake calipers were previously in the way), or remove the front guard (no crossover brake hose).

I bought the caliper bracket from Tako ( @K4T3M ) on this forum and it fit perfectly without needing any spacers for caliper or rotor. I did need to purchase some specific bolts to fit the spacer including an M10x25mm fine 1.25mm pitch and M10x30mm fine 1.25mm pitch. I decided to get these in titanium along with titanium main caliper bolts as you can see below.

Fitting the rotor required shaving some metal off the ABS ring tabs and bolts. If you can find a better rotor that already has the space for the ABS ring then that would make the whole fitment very simple.

I don't miss much when looking at Tenere Pictures Timemachine,  thank you for the feedback, and information on where to get the parts.

Lever feel is interesting, sounds like its more MX'ish. (Firm but with feel).

Some have mentioned the bike pulls to the right with the single disc, have you experienced this after the change?

I have ordered the 320mm rotor (looks the same as the one you have) but will be installing a YZ450 hub/excel rim combo.

Still need to manufacture the ABS ring, I ordered the 2021 WR450 speedo ring hoping I could drill it to match the T7, but the ring will only fit the standard WR hub. (I'm using a kite billet hub). 

 

Not sure if you have seen this company, lots of titanium goodness.

 

 

Pro-Bolt Australia

---

Pro-Bolt know you love your bike, our range of bolts and fasteners are used by race teams and individual riders and with one of the largest selections available, customising, accessorising or lightening your motorcycle...

 

 

[TimeMachine]

On 9/5/2021 at 5:56 PM, jeff936 said:

I don't miss much when looking at Tenere Pictures Timemachine,  thank you for the feedback, and information on where to get the parts.

Lever feel is interesting, sounds like its more MX'ish. (Firm but with feel).

Some have mentioned the bike pulls to the right with the single disc, have you experienced this after the change?

I have ordered the 320mm rotor (looks the same as the one you have) but will be installing a YZ450 hub/excel rim combo.

Still need to manufacture the ABS ring, I ordered the 2021 WR450 speedo ring hoping I could drill it to match the T7, but the ring will only fit the standard WR hub. (I'm using a kite billet hub). 

 

Not sure if you have seen this company, lots of titanium goodness.

 

 

Pro-Bolt Australia

---

Pro-Bolt know you love your bike, our range of bolts and fasteners are used by race teams and individual riders and with one of the largest selections available, customising, accessorising or lightening your motorcycle...

 

 

I imagine a lot of torque on the left disk would pull the left side of the axle back towards the rider relative to the right side of the axle. The thing is that the handlebars and triple clamps are free to move so the rider would instinctively allow the bars to turn, keeping the wheel straight. So not sure it would pull to the right, instead just make the bars move to the right. But no, haven't felt it.

 

No I hadn't seen that Pro-Bolt shop. It's full of nice bits for the bike. I need to stay away.

[Clax]

On 9/1/2021 at 6:52 AM, POLISHADAM82 said:

Well that would fall under user error situation. If you see corrosion you should clean it or replace the nut it's a pretty simple solution imo.

 

Well I just have the same thing happen to me.  Bike less than 10000km, axle TORQUED to spec and bike /axel area clean before the bloody nut seized.  

 

It's NOT user error, I've done this Shet hundreds of times and NEVER had an issue.  Luckily in was in the garage and not in the middle of the mountains.

 

 

 

 

[CavScout62]

Had the exact thing happen to my 2021 T7. Someone stated the axle for ‘17-‘21 MT 09 is the Exact same part. So many Yamaha part numbers causes me to hesitate to order from partzilla although the MT 09 version is C significantly less expensive. HELP!