Tractive closed cartridge

[Jason]

Thanks for all the comments, I'll just try to get it booked back in with the suspension guy here and hope that it's nothing too serious in terms of damage. I'm genuinely so frustrated with this whole thing now. But I think the whole thing just needs to be stripped and started again while inspected. 

 

@Hollybrook To answer your question I had the compression and rebound at the factory recommended 10 clicks. Unfortunately I'm inclined to agree with everyone here and say something must be wrong with it now 

 

@Windblown No unfortunately the guy who set it up originally has no prior experience on Closed Cartridge. But that said he has 30 years experience in the trade and only took on the job after looking over manuals and videos on the process so was sure he could do it. I genuinely don't think he messed anything up but I suppose we all make mistakes at times. My thinking, as I look back because I didn't even have this sort of thing happen when I initially installed the 370mm spring is something is now damaged or broken in the cartridge. 

Edited April 8 by Jason

[Jason]

6 hours ago, Tenerider said:

Think I've mentioned it before, I'm 83 kg without any gear except glasses

I'm running 6.4 N/mm and they are firm, but definitely not too stiff, sag is as required. Tractive Extreme Pro +30 mm closed cartridge.

Air gap is 123 mm currently, which is what imho accounts for the firmness. I'm planning to remove some oil so I'll get to 130 mm.

I've had accidentally an air gap of 95mm or so before, which was horribly stiff!

 

When setting the air gap, you need to remove the springs.

Then push down the damping rods completely and I mean completely they'll stop before the final hydraulic end stop, so you'll need to keep pushing them down (which will go slowly, due to the end stop). I've used a ring wrench for this.

Then you'll need to hold it down there, and get someone to measure/set your air gap from the top of the inner/lower fork tube.

 

I think this might have been done wrong in the beginning.

I'm guessing that afterwards something else has gone wrong, and eventually damaged something internally.

 

Haven't watched the vid yet, but bottoming out is in no way normal behaviour on my forks, although I'm not an aggressive rider. But the late Ray Ride4life surely was one, and he ran Touratech closed cartridges with a similar setup as I do. And he never told me he had them bottomed out.

 

Edit: Watched it. I'll bet anyone 50:1 that there's something damaged or set up completely wrong! Even without any oil insidev this shouldn't happen at such speed, just due to the hydraulic end stop!

 

At this point in time I'm betting you're right with the fact something is damaged. Looking back and when I first installed the 370mm spring it seemed great and I wasn't even getting this aggressive bottom out then. I'd say something gave or broke while these springs were in use and now the cartridge itself is damaged. Fuming and the not knowing exactly what it is, is the worst feeling. I'm trying to get through to the suspension guy all morning, he's not great at answering the phone 

 

I truly hope it's nothing too serious. Tractive did say before that an incorrect spring shouldn't damage anything so let's hope it's just a setup issue. 

[Windblown]

2 hours ago, Jason said:

Thanks for all the comments, I'll just try to get it booked back in with the suspension guy here and hope that it's nothing too serious in terms of damage. I'm genuinely so frustrated with this whole thing now. But I think the whole thing just needs to be stripped and started again while inspected. 

 

@Hollybrook To answer your question I had the compression and rebound at the factory recommended 10 clicks. Unfortunately I'm inclined to agree with everyone here and say something must be wrong with it now 

 

@Windblown No unfortunately the guy who set it up originally has no prior experience on Closed Cartridge. But that said he has 30 years experience in the trade and only took on the job after looking over manuals and videos on the process so was sure he could do it. I genuinely don't think he messed anything up but I suppose we all make mistakes at times. My thinking, as I look back because I didn't even have this sort of thing happen when I initially installed the 370mm spring is something is now damaged or broken in the cartridge. 

 

Yeah, when something is obviously wrong and the cause isn't clear then starting from the beginning before jumping into making random changes is good insurance against chasing ones tail.  I wasn't suggesting your guy is incapable, simply trying to get a feel for his prior experience with this type of fork. No one has a 100% success rate, particularly when doing something for the first time.  

 

There may well be nothing broken in the forks. 

Pull the cartridges out.

Remove the springs.

Check the cartridges for proper damping function to ensure nothing has gone wrong with the sealed CC portion of the cartridges (One should damp on compression, the other on rebound and feel smooth).*

 

I would recommend going back to the 6.0N/mm springs as I suspect the issue you ran into initially was not related to the spring rate being wrong for you. At least not to the extent you experienced and I feel pretty confident 5.6N/mm is much to light.  

 

You can play around and measure the actual installed preload of the springs by assembling the cartridge outside the fork and measure the installed spring length versus free spring length. I would guess installed preload (with preload adjuster turned all the way out) would be in the range of 2-10mm with no preload spacers installed. Tractive should be able to advise on what to expect there.

 

* If a problem is detected with the closed chamber portion of the cartridges things get trickier as this is a separate oil filled sealed chamber that comes preassembled and filled with oil from Tractive. It is absolutely serviceable, but it would be best to have someone familiar with fully servicing CC forks handle things if an issue is found there unless you're ok with your mechanic using your forks to learn on. 

 

Good luck with it all! Getting suspensions tuned is often a multistep process with repeated dives into the forks or shock.  Time consuming and at times frustrating but usually worth it if the stock stuff wasn't doing the job. 

[Jason]

1 hour ago, Windblown said:

 

Yeah, when something is obviously wrong and the cause isn't clear then starting from the beginning before jumping into making random changes is good insurance against chasing ones tail.  I wasn't suggesting your guy is incapable, simply trying to get a feel for his prior experience with this type of fork. No one has a 100% success rate, particularly when doing something for the first time.  

 

There may well be nothing broken in the forks. 

Pull the cartridges out.

Remove the springs.

Check the cartridges for proper damping function to ensure nothing has gone wrong with the sealed CC portion of the cartridges (One should damp on compression, the other on rebound and feel smooth).*

 

I would recommend going back to the 6.0N/mm springs as I suspect the issue you ran into initially was not related to the spring rate being wrong for you. At least not to the extent you experienced and I feel pretty confident 5.6N/mm is much to light.  

 

You can play around and measure the actual installed preload of the springs by assembling the cartridge outside the fork and measure the installed spring length versus free spring length. I would guess installed preload (with preload adjuster turned all the way out) would be in the range of 2-10mm with no preload spacers installed. Tractive should be able to advise on what to expect there.

 

* If a problem is detected with the closed chamber portion of the cartridges things get trickier as this is a separate oil filled sealed chamber that comes preassembled and filled with oil from Tractive. It is absolutely serviceable, but it would be best to have someone familiar with fully servicing CC forks handle things if an issue is found there unless you're ok with your mechanic using your forks to learn on. 

 

Good luck with it all! Getting suspensions tuned is often a multistep process with repeated dives into the forks or shock.  Time consuming and at times frustrating but usually worth it if the stock stuff wasn't doing the job. 

No not at all and I understand; it is a perfectly reasonable question to ask. In fairness to him, he did the initial setup and also installed the 370mm springs for me. But when he put in the 370mm spring he was sure something was wrong and warned me about it. But at that time I had OTR and Rally Raid tell me 370 was meant to be used so I just told him to proceed. So fair play to him catching it to begin with, I wish I listened but as I say I was getting conflicting information. 

 

It's hard to know what to do in regard to the spring rate, but I think for now I need to assess the damage if any and also the setup and ensure everything is as it should be. Then put it all back together and see about sag settings and stuff. If I am confident with the setup and turns out to be springs (again) I'll place that order. 

 

I kind of wish I had a nice big workspace to just pull it all apart myself in a clean and dry area but unfortunately I just don't have the space. Hopefully I get through to my suspension guy and get it booked in asap. 

[Alan M]

I be surprised if your mechanic has put the kit together wrong.

 

Although it’s a CC system the kit itself should be relatively simple to install if you have the correct tools. I’ve removed CC’s in the past to do the inner and outer oil change and it’s not too involved.

 

Hopefully your suspension man gets to the bottom of it, I’ve watched a few of your videos and I can see you like the T7. Be a shame for this to put you off the bike.

 

 

Edited April 8 by Alan M
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[Jason]

5 hours ago, Alan M said:

I be surprised if your mechanic has put the kit together wrong.

 

Although it’s a CC system the kit itself should be relatively simple to install if you have the correct tools. I’ve removed CC’s in the past to do the inner and outer oil change and it’s not too involved.

 

Hopefully your suspension man gets to the bottom of it, I’ve watched a few of your videos and I can see you like the T7. Be a shame for this to put you off the bike.

 

 

Thanks Alan, appreciate that. I genuinely don’t think my mechanic would have put it together wrong either, I know with this he was meticulous and he’s been in the trade 30 years, knows his stuff just perhaps not a suspension expert but looking at the install videos etc. you don’t need to be. Just need the right tools and space for the job which he definitely does. 
 

hopefully it’s something straightforward and simple. Didn’t get through to the suspension shop today, fingers crossed on tomorrow. He hates that phone it seems

 

If this was any other bike I’d have given up and sold it. But I love it, even being out on Sunday for the test rip I was reminded how fun it is. Just need the suspension sorted 

Edited April 8 by Jason

[Nopper]

On 4/8/2024 at 11:24 PM, Jason said:

Thanks Alan, appreciate that. I genuinely don’t think my mechanic would have put it together wrong either, I know with this he was meticulous and he’s been in the trade 30 years, knows his stuff just perhaps not a suspension expert but looking at the install videos etc. you don’t need to be. Just need the right tools and space for the job which he definitely does. 
 

hopefully it’s something straightforward and simple. Didn’t get through to the suspension shop today, fingers crossed on tomorrow. He hates that phone it seems

 

If this was any other bike I’d have given up and sold it. But I love it, even being out on Sunday for the test rip I was reminded how fun it is. Just need the suspension sorted 

Recently the same cartridges were installed in my tenere. My weight is 70kg naked. I went with the 6.0 springs with zero preload. 5,6 is way to light for you. I advise 6.0 as a minimum for you. Consider 6.4 with zero preload.

 

I am still dailing them in. They are great overall. Only problem is high speed washboard stuff. The bike gets upset and bars are shaking. It gets better with less rebound. I am now on 14 clicks open from closed, and have the feeling I can even open it a tad more. Comp is 11 open from closed. I am using all travel.

 

I was present when cartridges were installed. They came with all the preload spacers installed but I insisted on only using one to avoid rattling.

 

I live in Belgium. Do you live in the Netherlands?  You are welcome to try my bike.

 

Edited April 12 by Nopper

[Jason]

14 hours ago, Nopper said:

Recently the same cartridges were installed in my tenere. My weight is 70kg naked. I went with the 6.0 springs with zero preload. 5,6 is way to light for you. I advise 6.0 as a minimum for you. Consider 6.4 with zero preload.

 

I am still dailing them in. They are great overall. Only problem is high speed washboard stuff. The bike gets upset and bars are shaking. It gets better with less rebound. I am now on 14 clicks open from closed, and have the feeling I can even open it a tad more. Comp is 11 open from closed. I am using all travel.

 

I was present when cartridges were installed. They came with all the preload spacers installed but I insisted on only using one to avoid rattling.

 

I live in Belgium. Do you live in the Netherlands?  You are welcome to try my bike.

 

Thanks for the input and info. Unfortunately I am based in the Republic of Ireland but very kind of you to offer a go of your bike. 

I've actually created another video on these issues that will go live on my channel later today but after having a back and forth with Tractive directly I think we have found the issue. Basically the cartridges themselves have a safety feature that when pressure goes over 12 bar they will actually start pushing out oil from the closed cartridge itself. This is likely the reason I didn't notice a problem when I first moved over to the 370mm spring as it was a gradual decline in performance until the harsh bottom outs came to light. 

 

The bike is booked in with my suspension guy again for this day week (Friday 19th) and he will be stripping everything and rebuilding from scratch. 

 

Once I have that issue sorted and can start riding the bike as intended again I will make a decision on different springs. The thing is, when looking back, I started out on the 6N/mm spring and it was way too stiff. So the question is, was there a problem from the get go or not. At this stage I want to apply the same principle I would at work, don't change too much at once. Gradual changes and gauge each small change for impact. I'll ride with the 5.6N/mm springs and would be confident changing this to the 6N/mm springs myself down the road if I think my riding warrants it. 

 

Watch this space - I'm absolutely determined to make this work though haha

[Tenerider]

14 hours ago, Nopper said:

Recently the same cartridges were installed in my tenere. My weight is 70kg naked. I went with the 6.0 springs with zero preload. 5,6 is way to light for you. I advise 6.0 as a minimum for you. Consider 6.4 with zero preload.

 

I am still dailing them in. They are great overall. Only problem is high speed washboard stuff. The bike gets upset and bars are shaking. It gets better with less rebound. I am now on 14 clicks open from closed, and have the feeling I can even open it a tad more. Comp is 11 open from closed. I am using all travel.

 

I was present when cartridges were installed. They came with all the preload spacers installed but I insisted on only using one to avoid rattling.

 

I live in Belgium. Do you live in the Netherlands?  You are welcome to try my bike.

 

Agree completely on the springs. Even 6.0 are on the light side for your weight @Jason.

Do keep in mind that spring tension is only responsible for harshness if they are WAY too hard. I've heard often that most people can't tell the difference between two adjacent spring rates. Spring rate predominantly determine ride height/sag, and not how the fork reacts to bumps. Sure, to some extent spring rates do affect how far your forks will be compressed in total at a given force, but way more effect on this has damping, and also the progressive "air spring" created by the air gap. Too small of an air gap will feel very harsh.

 

Good to know that Tractive has an explanation for the current problems with your cartridges!

[Nopper]

Fact is I weigh only 70kgs and bike has no accessories  up front except for a skidplate. Racing Sag with zero preload is 72mm, which is more than 30 percent. With the recommended settings I use all travel (spirited riding).

Springs support your weight. That is their function.  Use the clickers to give you more comfort. They are there for a reason. If they still feel to stiff, duck out some oil.

A 6.0 spring with zero preload will feel more compliant than a 5,6 with a lot of preload.

Forget what you felt with the short springs since they were all wrong.

[Jason]

44 minutes ago, Nopper said:

Fact is I weigh only 70kgs and bike has no accessories  up front except for a skidplate. Racing Sag with zero preload is 72mm, which is more than 30 percent. With the recommended settings I use all travel (spirited riding).

Springs support your weight. That is their function.  Use the clickers to give you more comfort. They are there for a reason. If they still feel to stiff, duck out some oil.

A 6.0 spring with zero preload will feel more compliant than a 5,6 with a lot of preload.

Forget what you felt with the short springs since they were all wrong.

The problem was I couldn’t get correct sag originally with the 6N/mm spring at the correct length of 390mm. 
 

That’s essentially what set off this whole debacle. I was back and forth with OTR trying to understand why I was only getting to use like half the travel of the forks. That’s when they said it’s the spring length. 
 

it will be interesting when I have the forks pulled apart if the air gap was correct all along and if the setup was done correctly originally. But that’s what would have me hesitant to get the 6 N/mm spring again, my experience when I first bought the suspension and had this setup

[Windblown]

15 minutes ago, Jason said:

The problem was I couldn’t get correct sag originally with the 6N/mm spring at the correct length of 390mm. 
 

That’s essentially what set off this whole debacle. I was back and forth with OTR trying to understand why I was only getting to use like half the travel of the forks. That’s when they said it’s the spring length. 
 

it will be interesting when I have the forks pulled apart if the air gap was correct all along and if the setup was done correctly originally. But that’s what would have me hesitant to get the 6 N/mm spring again, my experience when I first bought the suspension and had this setup

 

Do you have the Tractive +25 cartridges? If so that would explain the light springs.   To achieve proper sag compared to the stock forks the springs would need to be lighter.  For example if a rider had good sag numbers with a 6.3 spring on the stock fork stroke then they would need to go about 10% lighter to get the right percentage sag on a +25mm stoke fork.  Coincidentally 6.3 x 90% = 5.67

[Jason]

6 minutes ago, Windblown said:

 

Do you have the Tractive +25 cartridges? If so that would explain the light springs.   To achieve proper sag compared to the stock forks the springs would need to be lighter.  For example if a rider had good sag numbers with a 6.3 spring on the stock fork stroke then they would need to go about 10% lighter to get the right percentage sag on a +25mm stoke fork.  Coincidentally 6.3 x 90% = 5.67

No standard length suspension. you guys have me worried I’ll end up with the 6N/mm springs again because the air gap wasn’t done right

[Tenerider]

1 hour ago, Jason said:

No standard length suspension. you guys have me worried I’ll end up with the 6N/mm springs again because the air gap wasn’t done right

Ehm ok, this sounds strange, iirc I'm running 390mm springs on my +25mm cartridge...

Just to be sure, I'd double-check if this is really the standard travel cartridge.

 

Regarding @Windblown 's comment on spring rate change: Sag on the standard travel forks should be 63mm, and 70.5 mm on the long travel forks. Indeed one could go about one step lighter in spring rate (approximately), especially when no extra preload is set on standard travel forks AND sag is correct.

[Jason]

56 minutes ago, Tenerider said:

Ehm ok, this sounds strange, iirc I'm running 390mm springs on my +25mm cartridge...

Just to be sure, I'd double-check if this is really the standard travel cartridge.

 

Regarding @Windblown 's comment on spring rate change: Sag on the standard travel forks should be 63mm, and 70.5 mm on the long travel forks. Indeed one could go about one step lighter in spring rate (approximately), especially when no extra preload is set on standard travel forks AND sag is correct.

Ye I ran the serial number by TracTive and got confirmation they are the standard length cartridge. I'll report back after the suspension is rebuilt and we can see how the sag is and also I'll get it out for a test rip and see how it performs. 

 

With the springs costing 170 ish each time I order them I don't want to get the 6N/mm again just incase the 5.6 N/mm is ok. My mind always goes back to just how stiff the suspension was when I first got it, so either it wasn't set up correctly or the 6 N/mm was too stiff.

 

Time will tell

[Tenerider]

Yesterday I tested my forks (Extreme Pro +25 mm) after lowering the oil level: Initially, I had set an air gap of 123mm, so slightly more than the recommended 120mm from Tractive.

I knew from the beginning that Touratech recommend an air gap of 130mm for the same cartridges.

 

Some weeks ago, I've met a suspension specialist and talked to him about my fork being not very compliant/plush. First thing he asked was which air gap I'm running, he said "that's way too low, you need 140-150mm air gap with your weight". I also told him that Tractive say you shouldn't go beyond +/- 5 clicks from the recommended settings (10 clicks) on comp and reb, and that I'm already down to 14 clicks (from fully closed). He replied "why? There's no technical reason not to use the whole adjustment range. Especially when the valves are wide open, you won't damage anything".

 

This guy does service and tuning on all kinds of bikes for about 30 years, knows Tractive (he's Dutch) and their products, so I think I can trust him.

 

So I set the air gap to 135 mm just to see if this will help, and indeed it does: Without touching the damping settings I finally get my forks to use more travel, they now feel the same way as the rear shock does. Much better behaviour over bumps, not harsh anymore.

 

I really recommend setting a bigger air gap for everyone whose cartridges feel harsh and hard.