Tenere 700 Sag

[Rich TT]

46 minutes ago, Whitey66 said:

No, the race sag may be the same but the static sag may be different.

Correct!

 

[Rich TT]

2 minutes ago, djkouross said:

Apologies, I mean race sag. With both setups (OEM and 90NM, each with corresponding preload) with the same RACE sag (30%/200mm) the rider height in the bike should be the same, hence feet should touch the floor equally in both cases. Right?

 

PS: As for static SAG, agreed it will be different.

 

 

I couldn't get the correct race sag with the old spring even with 22 clicks for my weight.

 

That's the point.

 

Now I can, with much less preload. It's not lower with me sitting on the bike. It's only lower on its own weight and with me on it with no weight.

 

Cheers

Rich

[djkouross]

1 minute ago, Rich TT said:

I couldn't get the correct race sag with the old spring even with 22 clicks for my weight.

 

That's the point.

 

Now I can, with much less preload. It's not lower with me sitting on the bike. It's only lower on its own weight and with me on it with no weight.

 

Cheers

Rich

Yep, I was using your case for my theoretical example, assuming someone could reach correct race SAG with 2 different springs and corresponding different preload adjustments.

[Rich TT]

12 minutes ago, djkouross said:

Yep, I was using your case for my theoretical example, assuming someone could reach correct race SAG with 2 different springs and corresponding different preload adjustments.

That is absolutely correct but I was struggling still to get the correct race sag with the OEM spring. Glad we're all agreed !! 

 

Cheers

[Ktmmitch]

50 minutes ago, djkouross said:

Apologies, I mean race sag. With both setups (OEM and 90NM, each with corresponding preload) with the same RACE sag (30%/200mm) the rider height in the bike should be the same, hence feet should touch the floor equally in both cases. Right?

 

PS: As for static SAG, agreed it will be different.

 

 

Agreed, but with the softer spring, with more preload dialled in to achieve the same Rider sag as the stiffer spring, then it will react much harsher to initial compression, a harder spring with less preload will give a more supple action, plus gave more capacity in reserve to add luggage or passenger weight

[Sandijs]

10 hours ago, Ktmmitch said:

Agreed, but with the softer spring, with more preload dialled in to achieve the same Rider sag as the stiffer spring, then it will react much harsher to initial compression, a harder spring with less preload will give a more supple action, plus gave more capacity in reserve to add luggage or passenger weight

Yes, that was hard for me to understand, but i experienced it myself!

I got havier spring from you (85nm) and now my bike is plusher and more comfortable! And also it's more stable in sand, but i stiffened the front a little bit to compensate for havier shock spring.

[janhama]

The above is actually physically not possible. Regardless of spring rate and preload the force on the spring is always the same when you sit on the bike. Now the force to compress it even further is related to spring rate. The heavier the spring rate the more force needed to get the same suspension action. Put it another way less action with same input. => The heavier the spring the harsher the ride.

 

What this phenomenon you desrcibe could be about is that with stiffer spring your suspension is working higher on its stroke and obviously not bottoming and/or depending the progressiveness of the linkage avoiding the harsher bottom part of the stroke. I have not studied the linkage geometry of T7 but I've understood it is not overly progressive and to me it does not feel like that either.

 

What I wrote above of course applies only if you have not touched your damping clickers. If one has compensated soft spring with more compression damping, then of course suspension with soft spring can feel harsher than stiffer spring and less damping.

 

To me the suspension setup on a T7 is just weird. Crazy amount of free sag with no preload adjuster on the front. On the rear you have to use all the HPA can give for a plain bike and rider with no luggage or pillion to get the sag about right. Why pay the cost of a HPA if it is no use? 200mm of suspension travel is not too much for this kind of bike and the setup as it is from the factory has already used a big part of it. And the rear spring is way soft for average size customer riding this size of an adv bike - not to mention additional equipment and luggage. And Yamaha says they used alot of time and effort to find the right suspension setup for the bike before it was launched. I have to say it's not the worst in the world. It works somewhat. But it's  weird choices from Yamaha anyway.

[Sandijs]

9 hours ago, janhama said:

The above is actually physically not possible. Regardless of spring rate and preload the force on the spring is always the same when you sit on the bike. Now the force to compress it even further is related to spring rate. The heavier the spring rate the more force needed to get the same suspension action. Put it another way less action with same input. => The heavier the spring the harsher the ride.

 

What this phenomenon you desrcibe could be about is that with stiffer spring your suspension is working higher on its stroke and obviously not bottoming and/or depending the progressiveness of the linkage avoiding the harsher bottom part of the stroke. I have not studied the linkage geometry of T7 but I've understood it is not overly progressive and to me it does not feel like that either.

 

What I wrote above of course applies only if you have not touched your damping clickers. If one has compensated soft spring with more compression damping, then of course suspension with soft spring can feel harsher than stiffer spring and less damping.

 

To me the suspension setup on a T7 is just weird. Crazy amount of free sag with no preload adjuster on the front. On the rear you have to use all the HPA can give for a plain bike and rider with no luggage or pillion to get the sag about right. Why pay the cost of a HPA if it is no use? 200mm of suspension travel is not too much for this kind of bike and the setup as it is from the factory has already used a big part of it. And the rear spring is way soft for average size customer riding this size of an adv bike - not to mention additional equipment and luggage. And Yamaha says they used alot of time and effort to find the right suspension setup for the bike before it was launched. I have to say it's not the worst in the world. It works somewhat. But it's  weird choices from Yamaha anyway.

My english is not so good, but will try to explain!

 

There is no phenomena, but pure phisics.. On a stock spring i used more preload, about 13-14 clicks, so this gives harsher ride because the spring is much more compressed and cant take much more compression..

On a havier spring i use only 5 clicks preload, so i have all of the springs compression available.

 

Shock hight in the stroke is similar in both cases, so it's not a problem.

 

Sure, Mitch will explain it in more detail!

 

But i agree that suspension is very weird.. Front is good for avarage size rider, but rear is way way to soft..

[janhama]

6 hours ago, Sandijs said:

My english is not so good, but will try to explain!

 

There is no phenomena, but pure phisics.. On a stock spring i used more preload, about 13-14 clicks, so this gives harsher ride because the spring is much more compressed and cant take much more compression..

On a havier spring i use only 5 clicks preload, so i have all of the springs compression available.

 

Shock hight in the stroke is similar in both cases, so it's not a problem.

 

Sure, Mitch will explain it in more detail!

 

But i agree that suspension is very weird.. Front is good for avarage size rider, but rear is way way to soft..

Preload does not have an effect on the spring when it is compressed further from the preload length. You can measure it if you dont believe me. Set your preload to minimum. Jump on the bike and ask someone to measure the length of the spring. Then turn the preload to max and do the same. You will find the length to be the same. Preload does not have an effect on the stiffness of the spring and it does not make your bike's suspension harsher.

[djkouross]

Gents, what an interesting discussion. I'm following closely as Ive read opinions on both directions.

 

I tend to think that if you use more preload, the spring will compress less than if not. This is why when you add 5mm preload to the spring, your race sag reduces more than 5mm.

 

The above is what I got from this video. See video and table at 7:54 

 

Views??

 

[Guest]

Another vote for more spring, less preload = more compliance.

Maybe sticktion.

Maybe rebound.

 Yes you will need more rebound if the spring has preloaded  energy stored in it prior to encountering the first bump.

Or hole.

  You can argue physics till the cows come home.

I used to roadrace at Shannonville.

Track has cracks in it so large that grass grows up in them.

Set up with .925with 10 mm of preload works one hell of a lot better than .90 with 16mm.

  Don’t care if you believe or not.

Suspension gurus think the same. 

 

 

[Noel McCutcheon]

Ref various SAG debates above...

An important point to note for the Tenere 700 is that the rear spring is not (repeat NOT) a progressive rate spring. (Yes the rear shocks suspension linkages provides a progressive rate rise later on in the later parts of the downwards stroke).
 

However as the stock rear spring itself is a linear 70N per mm spring rate I.e. X amount of force (70N) compresses it Y distance (1mm) and double 2X will compress it double the distance 2Y. Eg. 70N force compresses it 1mm and 140N / 2mm and 700N / 10mm and 7kN / 100mm; and then add on another 70N to make total of 7.07kN be another 1mm of compression distance to a new total of 101mm and so on, a linear straight line graph rate. 

 

So as the stock spring is not a progressive rising rate spring; if we had 2 mm of preloaded compression force (140N) screwed on and then adjusted it to 10 mm (700N) applied this will only affect the ride height that the bike sits at, when vertically up straight, off the stand(s) as the reaction force of the preload force pushes the shock back up and that rises the bike’s rear suspension up. In both these 2mm and 10mm preload cases when a 91 kg (900N) rider gets on the bike, or a bump force of 140N force hits the shock or when an weight force of luggage is then added the amount of preload used is irrelevant to the new extra distance that the spring will further compresses by. The spring will still act as per it’s same linear force / distance ratio aspect amount for each case; such as when the same rider gets on each time, but with the more preload on case the bike sits up taller. In others words, the actual new change amount of spring compression distance movement by the rider getting on will be the same regardless of whether the is no preload force on or whether there’s small or larger preload force applied. However, Not so when comparing a 70N per mm to a stiffer 85N per mm spring as the spring and the springs / bike will move down different distances.
 

All that adjusting the amount of applied preload force alters is the ride height of the bike and spring stiffness is not altered. 
 

Note, a stiffer high rate spring of 90N per mm (for heavier riders say over 95kg and higher loaded bike weights) will have the bonus of much less (or even none) of the preload range being used / needed to get the rider sag / loaded bike sag set, to approx 60 mm, so that not more that the first third of travel is all used up by weight of bike, rider and gear.
 

Hope this helps.

[djkouross]

I guess the linear (or not) spring argument clarifies it. In the case of the video I posted in a link above, the spring is progressive/not linear, thats why spring compression changes depending on preload.

 

Thanks much!

[Louis]

Let's see if I've got this right?

1. On the T7 rear shock spring is a linear spring. 

2. The linkage system makes the rear suspension act in a progressive manor.

 

If the above is correct surely the spring will compress at different  NON linear amounts on the bike as weight increments (say 20kg) are added! 

But it will compress in SIMILAR  amounts if removed from the bike (and linkage system)? 

[Noel McCutcheon]

11 hours ago, Louis said:

Let's see if I've got this right?

1. On the T7 rear shock spring is a linear spring. 

2. The linkage system makes the rear suspension act in a progressive manor.

 

If the above is correct surely the spring will compress at different  NON linear amounts on the bike as weight increments (say 20kg) are added! 

But it will compress in SIMILAR  amounts if removed from the bike (and linkage system)? 

1. 100 % right on 1.
2. Not 100% across all of the stroke though. The suspension is non-progressive for the very 1st part of the suspension movement. The mechanical linkage fulcrum lever designs are such that the progressive increase rate affects only start after about 70mm of the travel is used up. Therefore, for SAG setting the linkage is irrelevant.
 

As for adding 20kg luggage increments to get total rider + luggage SAG setting to an optimal 60 mm of used travel; the progressive linkage affect is not in play during the operation of the 1st part of the stroke and therefore irrelevant.  

 

If all of the preload adjustment range is used up / applied and the rider getting on SAG moment moves the suspension travel by more than 60mm, then that spring is too soft / weak for that total of rider and luggage.

[Louis]

Got it! I was merely making an observation of the mechanism/operation  of the linkages. I guess  I didn't make  myself clear, I didn't mean that the sag was adjusted to  suit new loads, just what would happen throughout the rear suspension travel as additional weight was introduced. 

I will  be at some  stage enhancing the suspension, as a taller heavier rider I need to modify my bikes to suit my stature. As one size does not fit all! So bar riser and tall seat is always on my shopping list. Suspension is next! Sadly due to the virus slowing down development of products for the  T7. I'm holding back. 

I think that a heavier rated rear spring will be the minimum for the rear end. I personally don't want to spend thousands for high-end gear. Now what to do on the front ??.... on a budget.

[Spuzvica]

I struggle to understand what kind of spring is now recommended. On one side the specialists (Teknik, Rally Raid) offer linear springs on their page, on the other side there is the Off the road progressive Hyperpro spring

OFF-THE-ROAD | Hyperpro Shock Spring Yamaha Tenere 700 | Online Webshop

---

Hyperpro Shock Spring Yamaha Tenere 700 - HYPERPRO Rear Shock Spring Yamaha Tenere 700 (2019-) The coiling for the Hyperpro shock spring Yamaha Tenere 700 is linear-progressive, that means that the pr

that only offers color selection and no kg but says it's progressive.

 

From various discussions I concluded that progressive springs are more desirable as they offer plusher "easy" rides while not allowing bottoming out when riding agressively. Tenere's 700 linkage only offers some progresiveness at the end of the compression if I understood from this discussion so a replacement sprint would still be better to be progressive. What's the verdict?

Edited April 21, 2020 by Spuzvica

[Noel McCutcheon]

7 hours ago, Spuzvica said:

I struggle to understand what kind of spring is now recommended. On one side the specialists (Teknik, Rally Raid) offer linear springs on their page, on the other side there is the Off the road progressive Hyperpro spring

OFF-THE-ROAD | Hyperpro Shock Spring Yamaha Tenere 700 | Online Webshop

---

Hyperpro Shock Spring Yamaha Tenere 700 - HYPERPRO Rear Shock Spring Yamaha Tenere 700 (2019-) The coiling for the Hyperpro shock spring Yamaha Tenere 700 is linear-progressive, that means that the pr

that only offers color selection and no kg but says it's progressive.

 

From various discussions I concluded that progressive springs are more desirable as they offer plusher "easy" rides while not allowing bottoming out when riding agressively. Tenere's 700 linkage only offers some progresiveness at the end of the compression if I understood from this discussion so a replacement sprint would still be better to be progressive. What's the verdict?

The Progressive spring or a higher than 70N/mm (say a 85N or 90N) linear spring should both help riders around 80kg to 95kg weight. It is personnel choice.

 

Note for both rebound damping may need adjusted. 
 

The Progressive spring might suit serious off-road users, as any heavy luggage weight is normally removed / not on aboard for more serious off-road riding and they tend to be sub 100kg riders. 
 

A progressive spring hugely helps bikes that don’t have progressive rate linkages, but will certainly also help T7 too. However, if a very heavy rider say 117 kg + with loads of luggage then a high linear spring of 95N to 105N should help with getting the rider 60mm SAG setting by only needing the first part of the preload adjust range to be used. 

 

Ideally with just the rider a few turns clicks of preload be great to get the 60mm setting good as all of the remaining preload turn clicks can then be applied on to rise the bike back up to the 60mm rider + luggage when they pile loads more luggage weight on.

 

“You pays your money and you takes your choice”.

[gearhead1000.pr]

I just fitted a 95Nm spring from Rally Raid and I am 220lbs with gear on ans I have crash bars skid plate and a bunch of other accessories and I have proper sag at 0 clicks.

I also installed the adjustable caps from above and they help. I installed one 5mm spacer and found myself maxing out the adjustment trying to set sag on the front. So if you are similar weight to me put all the spacers in the first time . With all in now I can set sag at 4 clicks.

[Ktmmitch]

25 minutes ago, gearhead1000.pr said:

I just fitted a 95Nm spring from Rally Raid and I am 220lbs with gear on ans I have crash bars skid plate and a bunch of other accessories and I have proper sag at 0 clicks.

I also installed the adjustable caps from above and they help. I installed one 5mm spacer and found myself maxing out the adjustment trying to set sag on the front. So if you are similar weight to me put all the spacers in the first time . With all in now I can set sag at 4 clicks.

 Excellent news, you may want to re-check your static and rider sag after about 1000 miles because we find the spring will be bedded in by then, so you may need to add a couple of    Clicks more of preload. 

[Aleksandar13]

Moving the discussions towards the front of the bike.. 

Rear has been sorted with 90nm spring and all is good, front at the moment stock... 

35mm static and 65 with me on the bike... 

I weigh around 104kg with no gear on... 

Need someone to confirm that I'm understanding this correctly... 

If I was to get stiffer springs for the front the static sag will reduce from 35 to? 15? 20?

And the bike will sit higher after changing this... 

I am riding on my own and don't plan on changing this so for me once the setup is correct I wouldn't change it.

Aleks 

[bth2]

simplest option would be to add a 10mm spacer on top of the springs and see how that works.ill be going down that route first.

[FAR&FURTHER]

On 6/1/2020 at 8:48 PM, Aleksandar13 said:

Moving the discussions towards the front of the bike.. 

Rear has been sorted with 90nm spring and all is good, front at the moment stock... 

35mm static and 65 with me on the bike... 

I weigh around 104kg with no gear on... 

Need someone to confirm that I'm understanding this correctly... 

If I was to get stiffer springs for the front the static sag will reduce from 35 to? 15? 20?

And the bike will sit higher after changing this... 

I am riding on my own and don't plan on changing this so for me once the setup is correct I wouldn't change it.

Aleks 

I have static sag in the front 45 and rider sag in the front 61. This means the rider sag is +- correct if I aim for the 30% of the 210mm of travel.

 

I'm not sure if the 10% and 30% recommended percentages for the rear sag applies to the front sag... anyone can clarify?

[Ktmmitch]

Front sag should be 35-40mm static, 50-55mm Rider, but there is more "stiction" with the forks, so you defintely need to try to average it out over several readings, I tend to wipe the chrome stanchions with a bit of fork oil to help them slide better when checking fork sag

[Chalk]

I thought it’s should be 10% sag for the bike and 30 sag for bike and rider!