What have you done for your T7 today?

[Tenerider]

11 hours ago, katana said:

I have the uppers and lowers mounted.  Fit was ok, but the finish was very poor - cut marks visible etc.  It works fine though.

 

What gets to me is that SW motech blames yamaha for the poor fit.  Their standards have fallen a lot.

Don't have their crashbars, but the skid. This one is really perfect in terms of fit. Finish on the outside perfect, too (some black residues from welding on the inside weren't perfectly cleaned - doesn't bother me at all).

[blazoPL]

On 1/18/2023 at 7:01 PM, Windblown said:

 

BTDT, exercised the Calipers, etc. There's  plenty of bite but  still a bit mushy.   I'll give it a good offroadish run then attack it one more time. It could still be an air bubble that keeping it under pressure overnight didn't get but I'm starting to suspect the MC may be just a touch small. I've got a 690 MC laying around that as I recall has a 13mm bore but I'd have to get a hose with a 90 on the end from Galfer to use it.  I'll probably stop by a buddies place on Thursday and see what he has laying on the shelves if I decide I want a firmer lever than I can get with what I've got. I'm thinking the Yamaha 450 MC is likely an 11mm bore. 13mm might be the ticket. Time will tell. 

Thanks for the info. I'm planning to do one caliper mod too. Have you tried bigger piston master cylinder already? Or maybe it started working ok now? :)) let us know. 

I have 9mm from KTM and 12,7mm from old yama. I am thinking what to choose. Does anyone know what is the tenere OEM Master cylinder piston size?

Edited January 22, 2023 by blazoPL

[Ray Ride4life]

Not directly to the T7 but for both bikes.
After more than 30 years it was time to replace my abused screwdrivers. 30 years ago there was no torx and just one kind of cross-head and i changed my 5 piece for a 12 piece set so had to reorganise the board.

[Windblown]

2 hours ago, blazoPL said:

Thanks for the info. I'm planning to do one caliper mod too. Have you tried bigger piston master cylinder already? Or maybe it started working ok now? :)) let us know. 

I have 9mm from KTM and 12,7mm from old yama. I am thinking what to choose. Does anyone know what is the tenere OEM Master cylinder piston size?

 

Haven't had time to get back to it yet. I did decide that I should  take some time to do a little research rather than continue to play wack-a-mole blindfolded.

 

All I have so far are:

The original MC appears to be 16mm. This surprised me some, yet since the brake calipers are only smallish 2 piston units I guess it really shouldn't be a surprise. 

 

The MC off the 450 is has "3/8" cast on it which works out to 9.5mm if the 3/8" casting mark is referencing bore size. 

 

If the above is all true then all things being equal I should be getting a firm lever. The only variables are:

1) Air in line

2) New MC has a much larger mechanical advantage on the lever than the stock unit and therefore is moving much less fluid beyond just the bore size change.

3) Something amiss with the new MC.

 

I'll jump back into it before too long. It's perfectly ridable as is, just not quite as I would like it. I have a custom stainless line sitting here I had made up for a different bike a couple of years ago with the right ends.  I may throw it on the T7 as a test to bypass the ABS and make sure it's not trapped air bubbles I'm feeling. However I can't feel the lever pumping up so I suspect it's not air.

 

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Windblown

[r1superstar]

On 1/21/2023 at 7:14 AM, john_aero said:

Just picked her up today 

 

its so clean and shiny

 

 

 

CONGRATS!!!

[r1superstar]

20 hours ago, katana said:

I have the uppers and lowers mounted.  Fit was ok, but the finish was very poor - cut marks visible etc.  It works fine though.

 

What gets to me is that SW motech blames yamaha for the poor fit.  Their standards have fallen a lot.

 

Fit; The problems I had were:

 

1) The cheap threaded fitting on the crossbar connecting the two sides; one broke off.

2) The welded tabs on the uppers weren't consistent hence the different angles they were mounted at causing the lopsidedness.

 

Finish; they were really well done and looked good.  

Edited January 22, 2023 by r1superstar

[r1superstar]

On 1/17/2023 at 2:59 PM, NeilW said:

Wow, that isn't good at all. Sorry.  I did find when installing mine, and speaking with their Oregon office tech, that the tolerances of Yamaha assembly require that we fit all bolts loosely and then cinch them up.  But you have a different issue.  What is your next choice?

 

HEED.  I'm currently awaiting the shipment.

[blazoPL]

2 hours ago, Windblown said:

 

Haven't had time to get back to it yet. I did decide that I should  take some time to do a little research rather than continue to play wack-a-mole blindfolded.

 

All I have so far are:

The original MC appears to be 16mm. This surprised me some, yet since the brake calipers are only smallish 2 piston units I guess it really shouldn't be a surprise. 

 

The MC off the 450 is has "3/8" cast on it which works out to 9.5mm if the 3/8" casting mark is referencing bore size. 

 

If the above is all true then all things being equal I should be getting a firm lever. The only variables are:

1) Air in line

2) New MC has a much larger mechanical advantage on the lever than the stock unit and therefore is moving much less fluid beyond just the bore size change.

3) Something amiss with the new MC.

 

I'll jump back into it before too long. It's perfectly ridable as is, just not quite as I would like it. I have a custom stainless line sitting here I had made up for a different bike a couple of years ago with the right ends.  I may throw it on the T7 as a test to bypass the ABS and make sure it's not trapped air bubbles I'm feeling. However I can't feel the lever pumping up so I suspect it's not air.

 

 

Thanks for the answer! Good to know oem is 16mm.
I don't have wr450f MC but from what I can find in internet it should be 11mm. 

I think I will try my KTM exc 9mm first, and we will see. I just need some time to do the job. I want also to do rear abs delete together with this mod.

When you try something different, let us know :)) 

[Ray Ride4life]

3 hours ago, Windblown said:

 

Haven't had time to get back to it yet. I did decide that I should  take some time to do a little research rather than continue to play wack-a-mole blindfolded.

 

All I have so far are:

The original MC appears to be 16mm. This surprised me some, yet since the brake calipers are only smallish 2 piston units I guess it really shouldn't be a surprise. 

 

The MC off the 450 is has "3/8" cast on it which works out to 9.5mm if the 3/8" casting mark is referencing bore size. 

 

If the above is all true then all things being equal I should be getting a firm lever. The only variables are:

1) Air in line

2) New MC has a much larger mechanical advantage on the lever than the stock unit and therefore is moving much less fluid beyond just the bore size change.

3) Something amiss with the new MC.

 

I'll jump back into it before too long. It's perfectly ridable as is, just not quite as I would like it. I have a custom stainless line sitting here I had made up for a different bike a couple of years ago with the right ends.  I may throw it on the T7 as a test to bypass the ABS and make sure it's not trapped air bubbles I'm feeling. However I can't feel the lever pumping up so I suspect it's not air.

 

 

I'm didn't get to install the kit yet, still waiting for the ABS rings to do everything at the same time and hope that the weather will turn for the better a s i don't have a heated garage.
One thing that got me thinking.
Why is the OEM MC not sufficient? It was good enough to operate 2 calipers with rubber hoses but does not work with 1 caliper and braided hoses. That doesn't really add up in my brain.
I was thinking about a radial MC but that doesn't add power, only more control.

[Windblown]

55 minutes ago, Ray Ride4life said:

I'm didn't get to install the kit yet, still waiting for the ABS rings to do everything at the same time and hope that the weather will turn for the better a s i don't have a heated garage.
One thing that got me thinking.
Why is the OEM MC not sufficient? It was good enough to operate 2 calipers with rubber hoses but does not work with 1 caliper and braided hoses. That doesn't really add up in my brain.
I was thinking about a radial MC but that doesn't add power, only more control.

 

Took me awhile to wrap my head around it the first time I started messing around with swapping brake calipers and such too. There is a ton of info and formulas for properly sizing a Master cylinder to brake cylinder(s).  The exact formula depends on desired feel to a degree but the rules on sizing still apply. Now since I hate math I tend to poke around a bit and just try some sizes to see what feels good, but it's the longer way to do it.

 

Anyway - Here is the scoop in laymans terms (which is the entire depth of my understanding) best as I can muster: The relationship between master cylinder piston fluid volume and the brake caliper piston fluid volume is a ratio that represents how much leverage your hand has on the brake pads.  Go to a larger piston on the Master cylinder and as you squeeze the lever you push more fluid into the Brake caliper and vice versa if going to a smaller master cylinder.

 

Keep in mind this works on leverage (like using a long pole with a stick and a fulcrum point to lift something really heavy).   The entire braking force at the pad is simply the result of the strength of your hand multiplied by  leverage built into the braking system.  The more leverage you build into the system the more power you can apply to the brake pads (but it will also mean you have to move the brake lever further).   

 

So looking at the stock system (again, I'm going to skip the math itself...) - You have two brake calipers both with two 28mm pistons each. You have a Master cylinder with a 16mm piston bore. When you squeeze the lever you are moving that MC piston a bunch compared to the very small amount of movement of the 4 brake caliper pistons, that creates the leverage that allows a couple of fingers to haul your bike to a stop.  If you remove half the brake caliper piston volume from the equation you have lost half the leverage advantage.

 

The result will be the brake lever will move much less and feel like you're squeezing a rock since you are moving the same amount of brake fluid into only half the previous fluid volume of the brake calipers.  Less lever motion/less leverage/less power.

 

The balance we're looking for is having enough power while not having excessive lever motion, and it all relates to the ratio of fluid movement from one side of the equation to the other.

 

Someone that's better at this stuff than me could undoubtedly explain it in one sentence that would make sense. Hopefully they'll come along here in a bit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Windblown

[Ray Ride4life]

In that case it would be more effective to look into another caliper.
I hope i get it done the second weekend form now (have something to do next one).

[Tenerider]

@Windblown it still sounds odd to me, probably I don't really get the point.

Anyway, quite on friendly terms with Math, so if you have some links just post 'em here and I'll do the Math

[Windblown]

4 hours ago, Ray Ride4life said:

In that case it would be more effective to look into another caliper.
I hope i get it done the second weekend form now (have something to do next one).

 

I'm not sure how it's more effective, the entire power of the brake system is your hand, small or large brake caliper makes no difference since your hand can only generate "X" amount of force.  But it's certainly another way to tackle the issue by just moving to the other side of the equation.

 

I looked at that possibility briefly  but Yamaha chose a really odd spacing for these Axial Brake caliper mounts which makes finding something that will fit without having to make custom adapters more of a challenge than I was up for. If you find something let us know! Beringer makes a few that might work. I started down that path and said "Bag it, easier to find a new MC".

 

 

4 hours ago, Tenerider said:

@Windblown it still sounds odd to me, probably I don't really get the point.

Anyway, quite on friendly terms with Math, so if you have some links just post 'em here and I'll do the Math

 

Here's a few I found with a look - 

https://www.joesracing.com/master-cylinder-math/

 

https://www.wristtwisters.com/threads/calculator-for-finding-the-proper-size-radial-master-cylinder.48345/

 

Front Master Cylinder Ratio Chart

 

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Windblown

[Hollybrook]

@Windblownhas a very nice explanation of sizing the brake MC to the caliper.

 

If you think of this like changing sprockets, it might make more sense.  At a particular RPM, a smaller front sprocket reduces chain speed and increases rear wheel torque. That is similar to using a smaller bore MC which will increase line pressure  for a particular force on the lever (like rear wheel torque) and require moving the lever further to get it (like more revolutions for the same distance traveled) . 

 

The pressure change is related to the ratio of the bore areas.  For a quick idea of how much a piston size change will affect brade pad pressure,  you can use this approximation: 

 

MC Ratio Change=Bold²/Bnew²

 

where Bold=original bore and Bnew=new bore.  You can neglect pi and /2 (to get radius from diameter) since the are in both the numerator and denominator. 

 

Thus going from a 16mm to a 11mm bore: 

 

MC Ratio Change=16²/11²=2.12

 

So, 2 times more force and a lot more lever travel. If you remove one of the calipers, the MC Ratio change is 1.06 times the stock configuration, which should result in a similar lever feel. 

 

I'm no expert on this but have to put my engineering training to some use! If anytime sees an error in this, please chime in. 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Hollybrook
Use @Windblown's example to be consistent

[Windblown]

44 minutes ago, Windblown said:

 

Front Master Cylinder Ratio Chart

 

 

Per the chart in the last link (If it's right it should be very handy)

 

Stock set-up = (4) 28mm pistons w/16mm MC = 12.25/1 ratio

Single caliper conversion using stock brake caliper

(2) 28mm pistons w/16mm (stock MC) = 6.13/1 ratio (to stiff, not enough power)
(2) 28mm pistons w/11mm MC = 12.96/1 ratio (close to stock)
(2) 28mm pistons w/9mm MC = something around a 17.5/1 ratio (too spongy) *nope, I didn't do the math... LOL

Edited January 22, 2023 by Windblown

[Hollybrook]

I changed my prior post with equations to be consistent with @Windblown and his example. 

[Windblown]

6 minutes ago, Hollybrook said:

I changed my prior post with equations to be consistent with @Windblown and his example. 

 

Heck I'm just glad we have some math guys here. Stuff gives me a headache.

[john_aero]

20 hours ago, NeilW said:

Bummer first ride had to wait but there will be 1000’s soon enough. Hope you left some money in the piggy bank for all the cool additions you will want. 

well im just happy to have the bike locked away and ready for me. Got a great deal for end run on 2022 models

 

have already order some parts and I’ll start adding more once credit card is better

[Tenerider]

10 hours ago, Hollybrook said:

@Windblownhas a very nice explanation of sizing the brake MC to the caliper.

 

If you think of this like changing sprockets, it might make more sense.  At a particular RPM, a smaller front sprocket reduces chain speed and increases rear wheel torque. That is similar to using a smaller bore MC which will increase line pressure  for a particular force on the lever (like rear wheel torque) and require moving the lever further to get it (like more revolutions for the same distance traveled) . 

 

The pressure change is related to the ratio of the bore areas.  For a quick idea of how much a piston size change will affect brade pad pressure,  you can use this approximation: 

 

MC Ratio Change=Bold²/Bnew²

 

where Bold=original bore and Bnew=new bore.  You can neglect pi and /2 (to get radius from diameter) since the are in both the numerator and denominator. 

 

Thus going from a 16mm to a 11mm bore: 

 

MC Ratio Change=16²/11²=2.12

 

So, 2 times more force and a lot more lever travel. If you remove one of the calipers, the MC Ratio change is 1.06 times the stock configuration, which should result in a similar lever feel. 

 

I'm no expert on this but have to put my engineering training to some use! If anytime sees an error in this, please chime in. 

This looks more what I expected and saves me from doing my own calculations

[r1superstar]

I installed the Acerbis chain guide last week.

 

 

[Black Dog Moto]

Took it for a spin in the snow 

 

Black Dog Moto (@black_dog_moto) • Instagram reel

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2 Likes, 0 Comments - Black Dog Moto (@black_dog_moto) on Instagram: "Couldn’t help myself, had to get the #tenere700 out in the snow. Still a long wait until warm weather...

 

 

[r1superstar]

I installed the HEED crash bars and Tusk Skid Plate.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by r1superstar

[r1superstar]

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by r1superstar

[SO_Rider]

Check this out: 

 

[NeilW]

1 hour ago, TéNéRéLOADED said:

Is it just me or is it a bit tedious to unscrew two Hex 4 bolts to get the rider's saddle removed? After opening the passenger's saddle with the dash key? Since the rider's saddle is held in place by two screws M6 x 25 mm I screwed them back in upside down. With some Loctite. And with a 2 mm hole after about 5 mm from the tip per screw. The saddle can now be slipped over the two screws and held in place with two R-Clips. Which ones I don't have yet—that's why in the pic there are two paper clips for the moment … Now the saddle will be removed in a few seconds. 

 

Just figure someone else has the same interest or issue on the Tenere 700 and look it up or ask. You find out the coolest things.